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[Vector]

United States.

Nope, they seem not to.  Admittedly, one case is relatively mild--pressuring high school girls into taking pictures they didn't want to take, drunk-dialing them to try to get them to come over and sleep with him, (as a college student) and stuff like that.  The other one thought that her saying "no no no no no, you can't ever come in my apartment again" was a regular rejection and considered it an overreaction so steep that he didn't feel at all bad about, you know, touching her after she'd already refused.

But I've also found that the folks who are most okay with those jokes--listening to them, I mean--are also more likely to forgive the reveal and say "boy, it's too bad nothing happened with those high school girls" and so on.

[Andrew425]

I think the problem is those guys are just bad people who need to be drummed on the head for a while.

I rarely use the word rape in a sentence because it doesn't really work that well as a word. Next time you hear it, (from a friend who would listen) ask them to use another word like destroyed or something along those lines. I think another cause of the problem is the need for some people to continually use hyperboles. Instead of saying they didn't do very well they would say rape as it implies a strong connotation.

I don't think the problem is sexism per se, just that bad people use sexism to their advantage in social situations.

[Loud Whispers]

I don't think the problem is sexism per se, just that bad people use sexism to their advantage in social situations.

~o.o~

Listening to a bunch of blokes going on about how something's raped them seems out of place to me just because it's a word invested with so much power in Western society.
Of course, it would also make sense that in societies where rape is given more attention than murder, that it'd be seen as funnier; taboos are the stuff that vulgar jokes are made of.

But the jokes I hear in the computer science labs--sometimes literally hours of rape jokes strung together--are obviously not funny, because if you're laughing that loudly at the exact same joke over and over again ("haha, I raped it" or "haha, it raped me," with absolutely nothing new happening in the world--just talking about schoolwork) and repeating your cohort's words like they're the funniest thing ever, I've got to submit that the person in question thinks that the idea of rape in and of itself is hilarious.

You underestimate just how much of the people's humour relies more on caprice than substance. That sounds exactly like colloquial euphemisms reflecting euphoric retardation at success. Rather common, only these lot chose their regular verb of choice to be rape.
In regards to your personal anecdotes, have you asked them to quiet down/act appropriately? No point being passive aggressive, just be honest and polite.
Failing that, move?
So far from what I've heard from your anecdotes:

• You've been targeted by institutionalized sexism that's unfairly lowered your grades.
• Literally had someone from higher authority stare at you while fidgeting with their flier [I don't get this one but it sounds dodgy].
• Appear to be surrounded by crude, inconsiderate people.
• Working in an education establishment place where people stare at walls.
  Hell, with or without sexism it sounds terrible.

[Scoops Novel]

Rape is not about women. It also happens to men. Since you have identified the speakers as male, and one example was "it raped me" where "me" is the speaker, then you surely know that the rape being tossed about is not specifically that of a female. You are trying to claim a gender-based ownership of a grievance in a rather... sexist way.

Also, people who make jokes about their protected status should be radioactive. It's a form of power. "Here's this thing I can joke about, but don't dare engage with me by also joking about it." It rarely ends well for those around them that lower their social defenses.

In your case, *long string of technical jargon* followed by kitchen joke is a steely-eyed glare that your opinion is proof that women are smart, and they disagree at their peril.

I'd say it's releasing tension, myself. Given that a usual response would be a joking sexist remark, you'd think it would be an indicator of inclusiveness.

As for "raped" and "gay" as exclamations, I'd say they're fairly omnipresent, though the latter is beginning to die away slightly. Still fairly ubiquitous with young males though. I'd like to add here, it's interesting how selective people are when it comes to what they will and wont listen to you telling them to shut up about. Said young males will instantly apologize whenever they say nigger and realize I'm in earshot, but if i tell them to stop using "gay" or "raped", it will initiate a argument or an extremely limited pause. Given the relative stake i have in both, given how things usually go when one group is freely discriminated against, the thought process is interesting.

My last 2 cents is that it's much harder to tolerate bigoted jokes when the comedian does little to nothing for them, knows little to nothing about them, and doesn't intend to do more then a little for them. Doesn't seem to filter through, either.

[Neonivek]

My last 2 cents is that it's much harder to tolerate bigoted jokes when the comedian does little to nothing for them

Mmmm that is some good Parody cake you are talking about there.

[Scoops Novel]

My last 2 cents is that it's much harder to tolerate bigoted jokes when the comedian does little to nothing for them

Mmmm that is some good Parody cake you are talking about there.

Touche. How's your counterculture arm? Stronger then the other i bet. You'll need it for your next riposte .

[Vector]

In regards to your personal anecdotes, have you asked them to quiet down/act appropriately? No point being passive aggressive, just be honest and polite.
Failing that, move?

Yeah, part of the problem is that with all of this going on you sometimes just get too tired to keep telling people to quit it (it's not like they always do, and sometimes give one a lot of crap that you know you just don't have the energy to deal with that day).  Especially politely.  I've asked more and less politely in the past, but a computer lab is a computer lab, and sometimes it's not so easy to get somewhere else to move to.

But yeah, thanks for the reminder.  I honestly appreciate it.

[Loud Whispers]

Internet love machine up in here, make some tea, enjoy life and keep vitality in high hopes. Not everyone's like them in the wonderful realm of meatspace.

[ed boy]

On the subject of rape and sexual assault, I think we need to define what is meant by those terms, similarly to how we had the discussion on what the definition of sexism is. As Vector mentioned here, there is lots of misunderstanding over what is considered sexual assault. In particular, there is one incident that happened with some friends of mine that I'd like bay12's opinion on.

Spoiler: incident (click to show/hide)

For the sake of this story, the names of the two major figures have been changed to Laddie and Lassie.
-Lassie holds a poker evening at her house, 4-5 people attend, including Laddie
-Poker is played, Alcohol is consumed, a merry time is had
-Laddie and Lassie start showing interest in each other and getting affectionate
-Everybody else leaves to give those two some privacy
-Sex between Laddie and Lassie commences
-Partway through, Lassie changer her mind, but does nothing to communicate this to Laddie
-Afterwards, Laddie leaves, unaware that anything is out of the ordinary
-Lassie tells the university authorities that he raped her, and tries to get him kicked out of university
-He doesn't get kicked out because there's no proof that she changed her mind
I'm rather conflicted about it. On one hand, it was sex that she was not comfortable with. On the other hand, he almost got kicked out of university for something that he didn't know he was doing, and had no way of knowing what he was doing.

[Dutchling]

What.

She has sex with a guy and then tries to get him kicked out of university? What did he do to her to make her want to screw him over so bad o.O?

Wait. I take that back. I probably do not know enough of the situation to say stuff like that.

I hope I don't t least.

[Loud Whispers]

Wikipedia tier advice:
1-(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,

• Check

(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and

• Check

(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

• Cross, it falls short here.

(3) Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.
(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.


Legally, it's not. Morally, it's grey with a chance of hail.
But as Dutchling said, unless it's that simple judgements can't be made without knowing both of them.

[scriver]

If we're going to "define rape", we must acknowledge that there is a big difference between "legal" and "moral" rape. I e, just because something isn't proveable in court doesn't mean in wasn't rape.

But I think it's an unrealistic idea to try to "define" all rape in way that still respects the circumstances of every case. As a general rule, I feel it within reason has to be the version and feelings of the one who feels raped that matters most. Because even if every logical clue points toward the opposite having happened, if somebody honestly feel that they were being raped, well... They still went through the experience of being raped. If, like in the above scenario from ed boy, there really was no way for the "rapist" to tell, and he really would have stopped if he realised she was no longer consenting, well, that's a shame for everyone involved, but it doesn't really change what she was feeling. His intentions doesn't really change her experience. I can't with good conscience say that her version of the night didn't happen just because the guy didn't realise (and in the given scenario couldn't realise) that sex was no longer wanted. He may not be a rapist by concious choice, and may be horrified by the thought, but I still think you have to say it was a rape. Indeed, I feel a better question for the scenario might instead if "was it rape?" but "is he a rapist in every sense of the word?".

Beyond that. The thing with scenarios like this is that since we weren't there, we can only guess and assume at was what going on. Why did she stop consenting? Why did he not notice?.why didn't she way anything? All circumstances that matters, but we don't and most likely can't know beyond doubt. Since this is a personal story as well, we can't assume you know all the details either, or that you aren't influenced by your trust in the involved people, or even that they told you the truth as they experienced it. All thus reasonable doubt makes individual cases like these really hard to actually comment on without jumping to conclusions... I'm not sure I feel getting involved in arguments over such incidents, when all I know about them is a few paragraphs long text, will lead to any constructive development.

[Vector]

Based on how you tell it, ed boy, it sounds like you only heard Laddie's part of the story (Unless Lassie literally told you "no, I didn't do anything to express a change of heart," in which case, uh, yuck).  So I'd say that based on what was said... look, based on my experience of these things, I'd assume that he was lying or being misleading of the facts (seriously?  "I changed my mind but I didn't change anything at all, now please kick him out of school?"  That just sounds weird.  And evil.).  But otherwise, no, I'd say it's pretty clear that he couldn't even be reasonably expected to ask if everything was okay and if they should keep going.  So yeah, sticky situation...

[Max White]

Spoiler: incident (click to show/hide)

For the sake of this story, the names of the two major figures have been changed to Laddie and Lassie.
-Lassie holds a poker evening at her house, 4-5 people attend, including Laddie
-Poker is played, Alcohol is consumed, a merry time is had
-Laddie and Lassie start showing interest in each other and getting affectionate
-Everybody else leaves to give those two some privacy
-Sex between Laddie and Lassie commences
-Partway through, Lassie changer her mind, but does nothing to communicate this to Laddie
-Afterwards, Laddie leaves, unaware that anything is out of the ordinary
-Lassie tells the university authorities that he raped her, and tries to get him kicked out of university
-He doesn't get kicked out because there's no proof that she changed her mind
I'm rather conflicted about it. On one hand, it was sex that she was not comfortable with. On the other hand, he almost got kicked out of university for something that he didn't know he was doing, and had no way of knowing what he was doing.

So I am going to treat this as a hypothetical and go off only what has been told to me.
How could you even be conflicted about this? This guy had no way to know what she changed her mind. This girl consented to sex, and then does nothing to indicate she now wanted out.

You know there is a point when we have to realize that women are people, and people need to be held accountable for their actions! None of this "But she is a girl, if she was having sex she wasn't comfortable with it is the guys fault, always!"

[Willfor]

Spoiler: incident (click to show/hide)

For the sake of this story, the names of the two major figures have been changed to Laddie and Lassie.
-Lassie holds a poker evening at her house, 4-5 people attend, including Laddie
-Poker is played, Alcohol is consumed, a merry time is had
-Laddie and Lassie start showing interest in each other and getting affectionate
-Everybody else leaves to give those two some privacy
-Sex between Laddie and Lassie commences
-Partway through, Lassie changer her mind, but does nothing to communicate this to Laddie
-Afterwards, Laddie leaves, unaware that anything is out of the ordinary
-Lassie tells the university authorities that he raped her, and tries to get him kicked out of university
-He doesn't get kicked out because there's no proof that she changed her mind
I'm rather conflicted about it. On one hand, it was sex that she was not comfortable with. On the other hand, he almost got kicked out of university for something that he didn't know he was doing, and had no way of knowing what he was doing.

So I am going to treat this as a hypothetical and go off only what has been told to me.
How could you even be conflicted about this? This guy had no way to know what she changed her mind. This girl consented to sex, and then does nothing to indicate she now wanted out.

You know there is a point when we have to realize that women are people, and people need to be held accountable for their actions! None of this "But she is a girl, if she was having sex she wasn't comfortable with it is the guys fault, always!"

Max, you were doing so well until you posted...

I would have just let scriver's and Vector's posts stand.