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Author Topic: Maintenance releases in the future?  (Read 3180 times)

Werdna

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Re: Maintenance releases in the future?
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2013, 07:06:30 pm »

I like the art theme, I feel it gives this thread a topical feel that separates it from the dreary iterations of itself before it.  Henceforth, imagine us at the Met, with glasses of wine in one hand, pinkies in the air, snagging munchies off passing trays...  :)

Well, I'd like to hear, from a software development perspective, why the other developers think that this lone developer ought to sink man-hours into much deeper levels of bug fixing than he already does after each and every feature release, instead of applying those man-hours into completing the remaining features; particularly when he has a long history of leaving the game quite playable by the time he moves to the next feature.  Now:  I could understand it if the game were paid for and it were "that" sort of so-called "Beta" (hi, MWO); because that implies Toady needs to actually satisfy his paying base, whom with justification can complain about the irritating bugs in something they purchased.  In that case, I understand and would even be among the folks demanding greater attention to polish before the next content patch.  But he has not charged for it, we are here of our own free will as real beta-testers, and irritations are a part of beta-testing.  I could also understand a need for more polish if the game became so inaccessible that the community was dying out, or his game was slipping from relevancy, or he was getting bored and just wanted to finish up; but none of these scenarios are the case.  Arguably, the game is currently hitting new peaks of popularity. 

I'd like to come up with something witty about the "long-term stability" of the game, but I'll be brief and just mention this thing has sat on my hard drive and been played to death for over five straight years now, with many potential more to go.  I can count on one hand how many games have managed 5+ years of play in my lifetime.  We can worry, particularly when we hear he's not using source control, but he has a track record so far that says our worry is misplaced.
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DG

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Re: Maintenance releases in the future?
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2013, 09:35:44 pm »

Here's how I see it. If the op is sort of like "OMG The sky is falling! If Toady doesn't do x it will be a disaster! Why doesn't he do it now!? Is he crazy!?" there tends to be a backlash. Fans will look at what Toady's already made, is making, and how much time he's dedicated to it and probably decide that it's not reasonable to infer from there that Toady is bumbling around blindly and that the game is just moments from ruin or destined to ruin. There have also been many "more bug fixes, please" threads with a restrained opening post which attract conversation and differing opinions without backlash. How about a programming cliche for all the programmers? Garbage in = garbage out.
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slothen

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Re: Maintenance releases in the future?
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2013, 12:10:50 am »

My post in this thread pretty much downplayed the problems of current bugs, but I certainly would love to those bugs fixed further.  Its just about managing expectations.  I don't think I've ever seen a single person say they weren't interested in seeing more bugs get fixed.
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"DF doesn't mold players into its image - DF merely selects those who were always ready for DF." -NW_Kohaku

Manveru Taurënér

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Re: Maintenance releases in the future?
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2013, 04:21:26 am »

I'd personally want Toady to continue just the way he is currently, if that is what he feels is the most enjoyable way of doing it. Because that's really what is the most important thing to consider. If Toady were to stop enjoying the creation of this game, finding the burden outweighing the long-term gain and tossing it aside... That would be a true tragedy. Even if it takes another 10 years to finish (and it probably will) it'll be worth the wait imo. I'm not even playing it currently but rather excitedly waiting for each small update on the devblog or FotF thread, full of anticipation for what is to come. Bugfixes is a completely secondary concern in my opinion (but you're all of course allowed to disagree <3 )


(and yes, I have donated previously if that makes a difference in the validity of my post to anyone ;P )
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Maltavius

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Re: Maintenance releases in the future?
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2013, 12:02:24 am »

@Werdna I would like to state that I in no way ever said the game was unplayable. That was another member of this forum.

Being an ex (professional) Software Tester by trade I cringe at the notion of bugs being left unsolved. Sure the games and software I've worked on have had 40-300 software developers included in the project but they all had their little piece of code that was "theirs". People all care about their code, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't state whats bugging you in fear of that persons feelings. As some have stated in this thread (and others) we are all beta/alpha testers paying or not.

About my posts in the forum; Using the form "I want" is to distance myself about comments that I'm speaking from the whole of the community (which I'm not).
Maybe I should have said "My view" or "my take on this is" instead.... English is not my first language. They weren't meant as demanding something.
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Werdna

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Re: Maintenance releases in the future?
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2013, 05:19:22 pm »

My apologies again then Maltavius - I should have known better to read too far into your wording, as ESL is extremely common in these forums.  Let me at least compliment your written English that it was perfect enough that I assumed it was native.  (I know you were not the one that said it was unplayable, as well, so those comments were not directed at you)  I can understand the irritation at bugs; I started my career in SQA, and as a dev now they are the ever-present monkey on my back.  :) 

Look at it this way - he is a lot like an author that is working on a grand epic, handing off rough chapters one at a time to his buddies for private consumption and feedback.  It is rough, but quite readable, and quite epic.  He is maybe 2/3 the way through to completion, and he is taking George RR Martin levels of time to get there.  As his private set of readers, some of us are saying "This would be a blockbuster if you just polished up this rough draft of what you have already!" and he is saying, "But I'm not done yet, I may need to heavily revise those chapters."  He could certainly go back and polish them up, one at a time - he needs to at the end before he publishes, right?  But there's a good chance as he continues, that he may not be happy with a chapter here or there, and he may heavily revise them before the end.  Any time he spent polishing them before he decided to completely rewrite them is partially/entirely wasted.

That to me is what a beta is all about - our primary function to him is to review his work and help him guide it forward.  Our enjoyment of it is secondary: it may make him feel good and motivate him that we like it, and it may help generate advance buzz for his work; but ultimately his goal is to complete the work, not make everyone 100% happy with the rough draft.  Just before publication and after, he can focus on bringing everyone from 90% to 100% happy in his rewrites.  It is enough for us to identify and document the bugs for his to-do list at the end*. 

Where I think the disconnect lies is that people look at the current (and past) revs of the game, see that it is immensely playable but also flawed, and assume this game is finished and at the "make us completely happy" stage.  People are not used to dealing with a half-finished product that appears to be finished.  We've become used to highly-polished AAA releases that add highly polished content packs/updates that drastically add to and change the product, just like his updates.  The difference is, we bought the AAA product, and those updates.  There is a reasonable expectation that they be polished, and hell to pay if it is buggy.  This is where my "not paid one red cent" comment comes in (and why donations are irrelevant).  But for as alpha/beta testers, there should not be such an expectation.  We're volunteers; its a free download; it's a work in progress.  It's customary to polish at the end, and its not there.  Ultimately, we're going to need George RR Martin levels of patience to see that final product.  Que sera, sera.


*
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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werty892

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Re: Maintenance releases in the future?
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2013, 10:03:14 pm »

My apologies

Remember guys, in no other forum on the internet will you see these words. Bay 12...

Maltavius

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Re: Maintenance releases in the future?
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2013, 04:34:02 am »

My apologies again then Maltavius - I should have known better to read too far into your wording, as ESL is extremely common in these forums.  Let me at least compliment your written English that it was perfect enough that I assumed it was native.  (I know you were not the one that said it was unplayable, as well, so those comments were not directed at you)  I can understand the irritation at bugs; I started my career in SQA, and as a dev now they are the ever-present monkey on my back.  :) 

Look at it this way - he is a lot like an author that is working on a grand epic, handing off rough chapters one at a time to his buddies for private consumption and feedback.  It is rough, but quite readable, and quite epic.  He is maybe 2/3 the way through to completion, and he is taking George RR Martin levels of time to get there.  As his private set of readers, some of us are saying "This would be a blockbuster if you just polished up this rough draft of what you have already!" and he is saying, "But I'm not done yet, I may need to heavily revise those chapters."  He could certainly go back and polish them up, one at a time - he needs to at the end before he publishes, right?  But there's a good chance as he continues, that he may not be happy with a chapter here or there, and he may heavily revise them before the end.  Any time he spent polishing them before he decided to completely rewrite them is partially/entirely wasted.

That to me is what a beta is all about - our primary function to him is to review his work and help him guide it forward.  Our enjoyment of it is secondary: it may make him feel good and motivate him that we like it, and it may help generate advance buzz for his work; but ultimately his goal is to complete the work, not make everyone 100% happy with the rough draft.  Just before publication and after, he can focus on bringing everyone from 90% to 100% happy in his rewrites.  It is enough for us to identify and document the bugs for his to-do list at the end*. 

Where I think the disconnect lies is that people look at the current (and past) revs of the game, see that it is immensely playable but also flawed, and assume this game is finished and at the "make us completely happy" stage.  People are not used to dealing with a half-finished product that appears to be finished.  We've become used to highly-polished AAA releases that add highly polished content packs/updates that drastically add to and change the product, just like his updates.  The difference is, we bought the AAA product, and those updates.  There is a reasonable expectation that they be polished, and hell to pay if it is buggy.  This is where my "not paid one red cent" comment comes in (and why donations are irrelevant).  But for as alpha/beta testers, there should not be such an expectation.  We're volunteers; its a free download; it's a work in progress.  It's customary to polish at the end, and its not there.  Ultimately, we're going to need George RR Martin levels of patience to see that final product.  Que sera, sera.


*
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If I reviewed a book I would expect it to be printed on some kind of paper, some kind of paper that I could flip the pages from the top right corner over to the left and read the next page.
Not a paper where I need to flip the top right corner every other page and the bottom left every other...



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thvaz

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Re: Maintenance releases in the future?
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2013, 09:48:55 am »

My apologies again then Maltavius - I should have known better to read too far into your wording, as ESL is extremely common in these forums.  Let me at least compliment your written English that it was perfect enough that I assumed it was native.  (I know you were not the one that said it was unplayable, as well, so those comments were not directed at you)  I can understand the irritation at bugs; I started my career in SQA, and as a dev now they are the ever-present monkey on my back.  :) 

Look at it this way - he is a lot like an author that is working on a grand epic, handing off rough chapters one at a time to his buddies for private consumption and feedback.  It is rough, but quite readable, and quite epic.  He is maybe 2/3 the way through to completion, and he is taking George RR Martin levels of time to get there.  As his private set of readers, some of us are saying "This would be a blockbuster if you just polished up this rough draft of what you have already!" and he is saying, "But I'm not done yet, I may need to heavily revise those chapters."  He could certainly go back and polish them up, one at a time - he needs to at the end before he publishes, right?  But there's a good chance as he continues, that he may not be happy with a chapter here or there, and he may heavily revise them before the end.  Any time he spent polishing them before he decided to completely rewrite them is partially/entirely wasted.

That to me is what a beta is all about - our primary function to him is to review his work and help him guide it forward.  Our enjoyment of it is secondary: it may make him feel good and motivate him that we like it, and it may help generate advance buzz for his work; but ultimately his goal is to complete the work, not make everyone 100% happy with the rough draft.  Just before publication and after, he can focus on bringing everyone from 90% to 100% happy in his rewrites.  It is enough for us to identify and document the bugs for his to-do list at the end*. 

Where I think the disconnect lies is that people look at the current (and past) revs of the game, see that it is immensely playable but also flawed, and assume this game is finished and at the "make us completely happy" stage.  People are not used to dealing with a half-finished product that appears to be finished.  We've become used to highly-polished AAA releases that add highly polished content packs/updates that drastically add to and change the product, just like his updates.  The difference is, we bought the AAA product, and those updates.  There is a reasonable expectation that they be polished, and hell to pay if it is buggy.  This is where my "not paid one red cent" comment comes in (and why donations are irrelevant).  But for as alpha/beta testers, there should not be such an expectation.  We're volunteers; its a free download; it's a work in progress.  It's customary to polish at the end, and its not there.  Ultimately, we're going to need George RR Martin levels of patience to see that final product.  Que sera, sera.


*
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If I reviewed a book I would expect it to be printed on some kind of paper, some kind of paper that I could flip the pages from the top right corner over to the left and read the next page.
Not a paper where I need to flip the top right corner every other page and the bottom left every other...


So wait for the book to be printed and ready. While it isn't you have to deal with awful handwriting and unrevised text. It is you decision to read it or not before it is ready.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 09:52:29 am by thvaz »
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Porpoisepower

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Re: Maintenance releases in the future?
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2013, 10:24:39 am »

Monthly bug fixes would all but require him to fork his development.
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reality.auditor

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Re: Maintenance releases in the future?
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2013, 11:01:03 am »

I have hard time seriously treating claims of many folks that they don't see/encountered any bugs in DF.

In my opinion, they just are blidned to them, either ignoring, not using bugged features or using workarounds so much that they are automatic.

Oh, excuse me, bees need tending by my only one and only beekeeper. Only one. Having more than one is just not kosher.
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Telgin

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Re: Maintenance releases in the future?
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2013, 11:20:51 am »

Or even one beekeeper, really.  I've had a single beekeeper stand around in the middle of nowhere picking his nose until near starvation.  I generally avoid beekeeping because it does have more than its fair share of bugs.

I suspect you're right in that most people just avoid buggy things or apply workarounds without really thinking about it.  I know I do.  Dwarf Fortress is a buggy game.  There really is no other way to say it.

Fortunately, most of the bugs aren't show stoppers at least.  Beekeeping is a side industry that suffers just as much from being unimportant as it does from the bugs.  Hospital overstocking isn't as bad as a hospital not stocking.  Being unable to melt metal chests is frustrating but not a big deal.  Dwarves standing on tiles that they try to build walls on is also very frustrating, but at least something easy to work around and generally not disruptive to the game as a whole.

Howevr, I do wish Toady would spend more time after this release fixing old bugs than he did with .34.01.  Being unable to melt metal chests can't possibly be hard to fix.  And some of the other bugs like soldiers not clearing bad thoughts from long patrol duty, or items warping during deconstruction, or hospital overstocking have had players disassemble the executable to find the broken code and tell Toady what's wrong.  These seem like easy fixes for long standing bugs.

I like new features, but I would like some fixes.  I know it's hard to balance between the two, especially with so many new features and the stated replacement of broken systems, but low hanging fruit...
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