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[LordBucket]

it seems you are trying very hard to deescalate the amount of coercion involved to prove a point but it does not work like that. Loss of a 6 month relationship is unfortunate but its nothing you cant live with.

I'm trying to get to the heart of the matter. Which appears to be that to me, rape requires coercion, whereas to you, whether it qualifies as rape depends arbitrarily on how much Marion stands to lose if she doesn't agree.

It's like you seem to think that if I offer you a $100 for sex and you agree, it's prostitution. But if I offer you a million dollars and you agree, it's rape...because you personally feel it's an offer you can't turn down. And if that example doesn't convey the idea to you, imagine that the person I'm offering money to is starving to death in a thir world country.

If I offer a million dollars to someone starving to death in exchange for sex, and they agree...are you saying that's rape? Even though offering the same exact deal to a millionaire wouldn't be?

Is that really how you see it?

Marion loses her soulmate if she refuses

...so, does that make Little John and Marion bad people because they both agreed to form a relationship that denies Robin of his soulmate?

the bound between her and robin is Devotion,
and she would do anything to be reunited with him.

You're just totally making this up. She left him for the first guy who offered.

it doesnt matter if it was rape or not. The result
was still emotional trauma for her boyfriend

Then why do you blame the Sheriff for that rather than Marion? She was the one who cheated on her boyfriend. The Sheriff has no obligation to Robin, nor to Marion.

If A and B have an agreement, and C makes an offer to B that violates the terms of the agreement and B accepts...B is the guilty party here. C was not party to the agreement between A and B.

[penguinofhonor]

"If you don't have sex with me I'll stab you" and "If you don't have sex with me I'll keep your friends locked up for forever" both seem pretty coercive.

[Catsup]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

it seems you are trying very hard to deescalate the amount of coercion involved to prove a point but it does not work like that. Loss of a 6 month relationship is unfortunate but its nothing you cant live with.

I'm trying to get to the heart of the matter. Which appears to be that to me, rape requires coercion, whereas to you, whether it qualifies as rape depends arbitrarily on how much Marion stands to lose if she doesn't agree.

It's like you seem to think that if I offer you a $100 for sex and you agree, it's prostitution. But if I offer you a million dollars and you agree, it's rape...because you personally feel it's an offer you can't turn down. And if that example doesn't convey the idea to you, imagine that the person I'm offering money to is starving to death in a thir world country.

If I offer a million dollars to someone starving to death in exchange for sex, and they agree...are you saying that's rape? Even though offering the same exact deal to a millionaire wouldn't be?

Is that really how you see it?

Marion loses her soulmate if she refuses

...so, does that make Little John and Marion bad people because they both agreed to form a relationship that denies Robin of his soulmate?

the bound between her and robin is Devotion,
and she would do anything to be reunited with him.

You're just totally making this up. She left him for the first guy who offered.

it doesnt matter if it was rape or not. The result
was still emotional trauma for her boyfriend

Then why do you blame the Sheriff for that rather than Marion? She was the one who cheated on her boyfriend. The Sheriff has no obligation to Robin, nor to Marion.

If A and B have an agreement, and C makes an offer to B that violates the terms of the agreement and B accepts...B is the guilty party here. C was not party to the agreement between A and B.

was it prostitution?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm trying to get to the heart of the matter. Which appears to be that to me, rape requires coercion, whereas to you, whether it qualifies as rape depends arbitrarily on how much Marion stands to lose if she doesn't agree.

It's like you seem to think that if I offer you a $100 for sex and you agree, it's prostitution. But if I offer you a million dollars and you agree, it's rape...because you personally feel it's an offer you can't turn down. And if that example doesn't convey the idea to you, imagine that the person I'm offering money to is starving to death in a thir world country.

If I offer a million dollars to someone starving to death in exchange for sex, and they agree...are you saying that's rape? Even though offering the same exact deal to a millionaire wouldn't be?

i believe i've been over the matter of prostitution in one of my other responses:

she can go be a hooker all she wants if it wasnt for this situation (though that is morally debatable for some). What she gave up isnt her virginity/fidelity, but because she let something happen to her that robin would never be able to live with

^^^it was never prostitution in this case at all

was it coercion?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's like you seem to think that if I offer you a $100 for sex and you agree, it's prostitution. But if I offer you a million dollars and you agree, it's rape...because you personally feel it's an offer you can't turn down. And if that example doesn't convey the idea to you, imagine that the person I'm offering money to is starving to death in a thir world country.

If I offer a million dollars to someone starving to death in exchange for sex, and they agree...are you saying that's rape? Even though offering the same exact deal to a millionaire wouldn't be?

when its a "want", a person can easily refuse. If its a "need", then no refusal is possible.

i can live without 1 million dollars, i can live with being starved to death, i can live with killing myself (well...maybe not violently because im sensitive to it (violence)...). I cannot live with the fact that i will never be able to see my other half again.

did they really love each other?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

...so, does that make Little John and Marion bad people because they both agreed to form a relationship that denies Robin of his soulmate?

no because marion's illusion about robin being her soulmate broke when he dumped her.

the bound between her and robin is Devotion,
and she would do anything to be reunited with him.

You're just totally making this up. She left him for the first guy who offered.

indeed their relationship was not "true love" but it was very close and thus she sacrificed herself for him. In saying that it affected her actions as much as "true love" would have before her delusion ended.

why is the sheriff at fault?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

it doesnt matter if it was rape or not. The result
was still emotional trauma for her boyfriend

Then why do you blame the Sheriff for that rather than Marion? She was the one who cheated on her boyfriend. The Sheriff has no obligation to Robin, nor to Marion.

as a human being you dont dangle someone's soulmate on a piece of string in front of another person and say "let me rape you or your soulmate dies".

Now that is hardly fair to either M or S.
It isn't their fault if R is a jerk. They aren't responsible for his actions. Robin is the only one ere who should be fully accountable for his own choice.

If we are analyzing the relationship between Marion and The Sheriff, is doesn't matter what robin will do in the future. It is very easy to claim somebody made the wrong choice when you have the luxuary of hindsight, but that isn't how morality works. Robins actions do not affect the morality of Marions choices.

hindsight isnt required to make the right choice, morality is.

EDIT: i'll measure the morality of choices depending on the result, morality is relative and changes depending on your life experiences. the result was robin being hurt and becoming angry and dumping his would-be soulmate and thus it was not the correct (moral) choice for her to make.

Lets pretend marion refused the sheriff's price and instead murdered the sheriff and all of sherwood to free robin. Many lives have been lost but she is reunited with her soulmate without letting herself get raped such that her soulmate would be hurt. I think this would have even been a more moral choice because they live happily ever after, and no one gets hurt.

[Max White]

Well let us consider:
The Sheriff locks away Robin Hood in prison. Marion approaches the Sheriff and begs for his release. Sheriff agrees if she has sex with him. She agrees, and the next day Sheriff releases Robin Hood. Robin Hood is over come with the selflessness of Marions act and takes her in his arms and they go off and live very happily together deep in the forest where the Sheriff will never darken their door again.

Now, did Marion make the right choice?

[Catsup]

Well let us consider:
The Sheriff locks away Robin Hood in prison. Marion approaches the Sheriff and begs for his release. Sheriff agrees if she has sex with him. She agrees, and the next day Sheriff releases Robin Hood. Robin Hood is over come with the selflessness of Marions act and takes her in his arms and they go off and live very happily together deep in the forest where the Sheriff will never darken their door again.

Now, did Marion make the right choice?

robin made the right choice in this scenerio. But i think if he truly loved her he would be a bit more emo than this.

[Max White]

Fuck Robin, the question was about Marion. Was her choice to have sex with the Sheriff moral in the example where Marion and Robin live happily ever after?

[Catsup]

Fuck Robin, the question was about Marion. Was her choice to have sex with the Sheriff moral in the example where Marion and Robin live happily ever after?

it was not.

if she was worth anything to robin, robin would still be very traumatized because she let herself be raped for his sake.

[Max White]

There is no such thing as 'letting yourself get raped', or else it isn't rape. This line of thought only serves to open the window to people trying to blame the victim with phrases like 'Well she shouldn't have let it happen!'

[Catsup]

There is no such thing as 'letting yourself get raped', or else it isn't rape.

this is where your morality fails, you should read the "was it coercion" part of my response to LordBucket.

This line of thought only serves to open the window to people trying to blame the victim with phrases like 'Well she shouldn't have let it happen!'

conventionally rape happens because the rapist physically forces the victim to comply. Blaming the victim means they should have resisted more than they did.

[GlyphGryph]

I think we're missing something important here.

Does Marion think it was rape? Neither of the two examples, the original or Max's alteration, shows any indication of that being the case.

And I feel like that should probably have a bit of weight to it.

[Catsup]

I think we're missing something important here.

Does Marion think it was rape? Neither of the two examples, the original or Max's alteration, shows any indication of that being the case.

And I feel like that should probably have a bit of weight to it.

exactly why she is amoral.

[Max White]

Really? Consensual sex happens, nobody is complaining about the sex, there is no actual evidence to suggest that anybody is traumatised due to the sex, but it must be rape because the woman stands to gain something?

That really is unfair on Marion. She has the right to decide for herself, and she opted to have sex.

[Catsup]

Really? Consensual sex happens, nobody is complaining about the sex, there is no actual evidence to suggest that anybody is traumatised due to the sex, but it must be rape because the woman stands to gain something?

That really is unfair on Marion. She has the right to decide for herself, and she opted to have sex.

that is how you see the situation, you can also see the situation as her silently hiding her suffer/trauma; so lets drop arguing over if shes really traumatized or not.

There are no signs of trauma but the main argument in this thread is whether it was rape or not due to the amount of coercion involved.

and what exactly did she stand to gain? she stands to lose something she cannot, the coercion is very clear.

you have every right to decide to hurt someone, a moral person chooses not to exercise that right. She let herself be raped so robin could go free. Robin could not live with that fact.

[Nilik]

Marion does the wrong thing for the right reasons; she's degrading herself in order to secure the release Robin and John. She is however the only one in this scenario who isn't thinking about number one; her actions are purely altruistic as they benefit everyone but herself.

I wouldn't call her actions "purely altruistic." I don't imagine that she'd be giving herself to the Sheriff to release any other prisoners. Only the one that she has a vested interest in.

John is largely passive. He defends Marion, but then he was never her love interest in the first place, so the fact that she "cheated" means nothing to him anyway. Best-case he's being chivalrous, worst-case he just wants Marion for himself. I find that the truth tends to lie between the two possible extremes, so I'm going to say he's alright.

...wait.

Why is it that Marion can take action to get her boyfriend back and she's "purely altruistic" but John takes action to get a girlfriend and he's just "alright" becuse he wants Marion for himself?

Isn't this a bit of a double standard?

The Sheriff is the worst. He just abuses his power for no reason other than he can.

I don't think that's true. He's abusing his power to get something he wants. I agree that he is abusing his position. However, if his motivation is simply that he wants sex with Marion, I would put that on higher moral ground than if his motivation is to cause devastation and ruin to her relationship with Robin. From Robin or Marion's point of view it might not matter. But as a third party observer I would take intent into consideration in my evaluation.

To address your points:

I wouldn't call her actions "purely altruistic." I don't imagine that she'd be giving herself to the Sheriff to release any other prisoners. Only the one that she has a vested interest in.

You have a point, not purely altruistic then. The point is, she's the only one making any kind of personal sacrifice.

...wait.

Why is it that Marion can take action to get her boyfriend back and she's "purely altruistic" but John takes action to get a girlfriend and he's just "alright" becuse he wants Marion for himself?

Isn't this a bit of a double standard?

Because Marion's actions require a greater sacrifice on her part. You could argue that John is sacrificing his friendship with Robin I guess, but I'd still rank sleeping with someone you despise as a greater sacrifice and Robin's a douche anyway so no big loss there.

I don't think that's true. He's abusing his power to get something he wants. I agree that he is abusing his position. However, if his motivation is simply that he wants sex with Marion, I would put that on higher moral ground than if his motivation is to cause devastation and ruin to her relationship with Robin. From Robin or Marion's point of view it might not matter. But as a third party observer I would take intent into consideration in my evaluation.

Oh come on, clearly that's what I meant. No he's not doing it just for no reason for the lolz, he's doing it because it gets him something he wants. I would have to say that ruining Marion and Robin's relationship was probably exactly what he had in mind (Robin is his nemesis remember?), and the sex itself would be secondary.

I think this is a pretty great thought experiment, honestly, as you can come to completely different conclusions depending on how much you're willing to read between the lines. What I am having trouble answering is the "is this rape?" question. Pointing a gun at someone and saying "have sex with me or I'll shoot you" is clearly rape. Pointing a gun at a loved one and saying "have sex with me or I shoot them" is also rape. However, given that Robin probably has legitimately earned his jail time, the situation becomes a bit murkier.

*edit* Quotes fixed, I am bad at internet.

[GlyphGryph]

Fix your quotes dude, I'm not reading that.