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[SethCreiyd]

I apologize for any head messing I may have caused.

[Lectorog]

I apologize for any head messing I may have caused.

Seriously, all of the forum text looks bigger than usual. It's really weird. I tried resetting the zoom because I thought there was an actual problem.

This thread has not yet served its purpose, so sorry for that. It's really important though, I assure you.

[Zangi]

EDIT: i think this test is too black and white after looking at the answers to it, theres at once 1 more that fits me at least reasonably well. I spent most of my time in the test deciding who was the worst.

Black and white?  Not really.  It is many shades of gray, if you consider the fact that the 4 of em are also being judged by people other then you.  Many of us already having different interpretations... and there are some debates of that going on now.
For example Marion: Some see her actions as slutty/stupid.  Some see her as a victim.  Others see her actions as an act of self-sacrifice.

FAKEEDIT:

Hey guys, got actual discussion of the Robin Hood test going on in this thread.

Right now, I am confuzzuled.  But yes, the Robin Hood test originated from there and spilled over to here somehow.

[Catsup]

your explanations got me thinking some more:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm pretty comfortable putting Marion at the top.  Let's consider the following, remembering that honesty is indicated as weighted heavily as any other notion of morality.  She starts out by pleading for their lives in the name of her love for Robin, when she's confronted by the moral dilemma.  Would you allow such a personal violation and betray someone's trust in order to save their life?  And not just theirs, but another person's life, as well?

The terms are not hers, they are the options presented to her.  The only way she can save these two lives is by sacrificing herself and doing something despicable.  But dilemma though this is, it is not our dilemma to solve, but Marion's.  And her conclusion is, yes, she will do this despicable thing in order to free them.

depends on just how much you value "honesty" relative to morality really. I see the sheriff's price as the most despicable. But her acceptance of it is just as or perhaps even more despicable. i ranked her above the sheriff because of her honestly, and only that. She must have been REALLY stupid or just a total slut. Has she thought "is this what robin would want? would he rather die than let me go through with this?" Some of the answers refer to choosing her as the best means strong women. I think it means the complete opposite of that. If she was really strong she would not be willing to barter with her body, she would not let her love of robin blind her into even thinking of accepting the deal. If shes a slut, well, i think "slut" is a "light" way of describing her acceptance of the sheriff's deal. It was practically acceptance of rape, not some casual sexual relationship if i may compare..

And remember that she is "bewildered" by Robin's reaction to this.  She wasn't expecting his reaction, she honestly believed she was doing the right thing.  The measure of morality is doing what we think is right.  And to Marion, saving two lives at the cost of herself and her love could only have been an agonizing decision.

and it was the wrong decision. If i was her i'd let robin rot and get him out some other way, murdering the sheriff and the rest of Sherwood if need be.

Robin Hood comes off an ungrateful dickhead, and while he certainly being honest about his feelings, as far as actions go, well, while it's not easy for people to control their thoughts or feelings, we do have control of our actions, and you could hardly say that Robin is acting in a moral fashion here.  His feelings are understandable, his outrage is forgivable, but abusing the woman who just saved his life is not justifiable.

agreed

We are, of course, given little glimpse into the background and the source of his feelings.  Maybe Robin had an elaborate escape plan underway, or maybe he'd rather die than betray Marion's trust, and maybe he expected she would die before betraying his.  But we aren't given any such detail, so that's speculation outside the goal of rating the morality of the actions displayed.  And the test encourages us to "forget any preconceived ideas" about the characters, so let's adhere to that.

lets pretend they were gonna die in prison otherwise.

...

Either way, these actions paint a dim portrait of the man, even before we account for the fact, the truth of Marion's love for Robin irrelevant, that it's hardly freely-given consent if it's extorted, that what the Sheriff did is tantamount to rape, and at the -very- least, it's a vile and repugnant way for any creature to behave, let alone a man at the helm of great power.

agreed.

[Lectorog]

Hey guys, got actual discussion of the Robin Hood test going on in this thread.

Right now, I am confuzzuled.  But yes, the Robin Hood test originated from there and spilled over to here somehow.

No, someone suggested it in this thread and it was linked in that thread an hour later because that's the thread for discussing various surveys and this is the thread for LordBucket finding a test.

[LordBucket]

I'd put Robin below the Sheriff here...

Agreed. If he had merely rejected Marion, that's his choice. Her actions do not obligate him to reciprocate. However, abusing her is unacceptable. The Sherif, curiously, is the only one who engaged in "dishonest" behavior, by dishonoring his commission as Sheriff, and releasing a criminal that he was presumably sworn to take to trial.

Again, the story would be far more revealing of a person's worldview if this context were removed.

Maid Marion and Little John are about equal, I guess...

I find that curious. To me, Little John is the only guiltless party, and by far the most admirable. Not only is he the only individual in the story to take no action that causes harm, not only is he sufficiently pure of heart that he is able to not be bothered by the circumstances, he's also the only person in the entire story whose actions successfully generated a happy ending.

Maid Marion accepted a terrible offer, is probably traumatised on a fundamental leve

But there is no indiction that she is traumatized. The only indicator of any emotional reaction from her is that she is bewildered that Robin isn't ok with her choice. I don't read that as "traumatized" but rather as "oh, this isn't a big deal. I'm ok with this."

If she really belived what she was doing wasn't ok, she wouldn't have been so surprised at Robin's reaction to it.

Robin in this situation never does anything honest or dishonest except get angry at someone who loves him

Why do you conclude that she loves him? Seems to me that she's a delusional idiotic floozy. She's emotionally involved with a notorious bandit and criminal, she claims to love him, yet she doesn't even know who he is well enough to know how he'll react to her decision, and she moves on the the next guy who asks. This girl is not motivated by love. You can talk all you want about her "sacrifice" but if she were motivated by love she wouldn't swap paramours in a heartbeat like she did. Seems to me she just wants to be in a relationship and she doesn't really care with whom.

In any case, none of this is dishonest or a "moral failing." She had no intent to cause harm, she was open and honest about her actions and she had the courage to take action to try to make things better. I rank her as #2 after Little John.

Little John > Marion > the Sheriff > Robin

[LordBucket]

this is the thread for LordBucket finding a test.

Yes, but I've accepted the derail at this point. I can probably more or less recreate the "spirit" of the test I'm looking for from memory. It's obviously based on the Robin hood test, but the context is stripped and there's an extra party added.

[Catsup]

But there is no indiction that she is traumatized. The only indicator of any emotional reaction from her is that she is bewildered that Robin isn't ok with her choice. I don't read that as "traumatized" but rather as "oh, this isn't a big deal. I'm ok with this."

Thats how you read it. Its sound to say that a relatively normal person would be traumatized to some extent by sexual extortion/rape. Even if she has a fetish for it, it spells some troubling questions for morality either way.

Little John > Marion > the Sheriff > Robin

so you are saying sexual extortion/rape is more morally correct than "abusive behavior" due to passion am i correct?

Why do you conclude that she loves him?

because the story says she loved him?

She's emotionally involved with a notorious bandit and criminal, she claims to love him, yet she doesn't even know who he is well enough to know how he'll react to her decision, and she moves on the the next guy who asks. This girl is not motivated by love.

this isnt about what she knows or doesnt know, its about morality. The context is that she truly loves him in such a way that she'd be willing to sacrifice herself for his life. The question of morality is which side would have been worth more? robin's response seems to show that he would have gladly gave her his life

[LordBucket]

so you are saying sexual extortion/rape is more morally correct
than "abusive behavior" due to passion am i correct?

I'm reading the "Robin abused her" line to mean that he physically beat her.

Its sound to say that a relatively normal person would be traumatized to some extent by sexual extortion/rape.

There is no rape in this story. She is a willing participant. Extortion is debatable, we'll get to that in a moment.

This is rape:
"Marion went into the jail and asked for Robin's release. The Sheriff said sure, led her to a jail cell and locked her inside. Then he handcuffed her to the bars and had his way with her while she screamed for help and begged him to stop."

This is not rape:
"Marion went into the jail and asked for Robin's release. The Sheriff leared at her and said he'd release her if she slept with him. Marion thought about it, decided she could live with it, and gave him what he wanted."

I interpret the story to be closer to the second scenario.

The Sheriff in this story is more like a rich westerner taking advantage of someone starving in a third world country by giving them money to buy food in exchange sex. Yes, there's an extreme power disparity. Yes, the situation is unfortunate. But both parties are willingly engaging in commerce without deceit about what they're offering. The Sheriff made an offer. Marion was free to accept or reject it. She chose to accept it. She clearly found the terms acceptable. If she finds it acceptable, I have a difficult time judging her decision as "wrong" and concluding that the terms were not acceptable.

It could possibly be argued that the Sheriff is the one who created the power disparity in the first place, because he's the one who imprisoned Robin. However, he did not do this for the purpose of putting Marion at a disadvantage in order to take advantage of her. If he'd arrested some random innocent for the purposes of extorting sex from the man's wife, yes...that would knock him down a couple rungs. But let's remember that he is an officer of the realm, and Robin is a thief and criminal. If he'd gone to Marion and threatened to arrest Robin if she didn't sleep with him, that would be extortion. If he'd arrested Robin specifically for the purpose of manipulating Marion into sex, that would be extortion. But this was not his intent. His intent was to arrest a criminal, and he was merely opportunistic about it after the fact.

The Sheriff's crime is abusing his position of authority. Robin's crime is beating a woman who took action to save him.

because the story says she loved him?

No. She says that she loves him:

"Maid Marion begged the Sheriff for their release, pleading her love for Robin."

Just like any number of idiot girls who insist they love abusive men.

The context is that she truly loves him in such a way that
she'd be willing to sacrifice herself for his life.

Since when do people truly in love with X casually ride off into the sunset with Y? Your interpretation is that she truly loves him. Your interpretation is that giving sex is a sacrifice. My interpretation is that she's shallow and loosely attached.

[Catsup]

you are over-simplifying things and throwing some things out the window to make everything buttery and seem not as bad, but it doesnt work like that:

Just like any number of idiot girls who insist they love abusive men.

thing is though robin was only a thief, he isnt a murderer or anything (in the story). What you're talking about is bad boy packages and i dont think this story would include those without giving more of a direct hint. Youre assuming too much.

Since when do people truly in love with X casually ride off into the sunset with Y? Your interpretation is that she truly loves him. Your interpretation is that giving sex is a sacrifice. My interpretation is that she's shallow and loosely attached.

her illusion was broken when he "abused" her, but feelings are feelings, do not underestimate their power. This story made quite a few things seem "casual" because it was so brief and undetailed.


now lets assume she really does love robin and is doing it for his sake, and that he truly loves her, you'll see why the following 2 make sense:

The Sheriff in this story is more like a rich westerner taking advantage of someone starving in a third world country by giving them money to buy food in exchange sex. Yes, there's an extreme power disparity. Yes, the situation is unfortunate.

she can go be a hooker all she wants if it wasnt for this situation (though that is morally debatable for some). What she gave up isnt her virginity/fidelity, but because she let something happen to her that robin would never be able to live with. She is selfish and stupid at best, and utter immoral at worst.

But both parties are willingly engaging in commerce without deceit about what they're offering. The Sheriff made an offer. Marion was free to accept or reject it. She chose to accept it. She clearly found the terms acceptable. If she finds it acceptable, I have a difficult time judging her decision as "wrong" and concluding that the terms were not acceptable.

i would say her choice is very "limited" in the matter, and thus it is rape. If she truly believed there was no other way, and truly believed that this was the only way to free robin.

The Sheriff's crime is abusing his position of authority. Robin's crime is beating a woman who took action to save him.

this statement is pretty pointless, i know a bit of law and the courts certainly find crimes of intent to be vastly worse than crimes of passion.

[Catsup]

your explanations got me thinking some more:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm pretty comfortable putting Marion at the top.  Let's consider the following, remembering that honesty is indicated as weighted heavily as any other notion of morality.  She starts out by pleading for their lives in the name of her love for Robin, when she's confronted by the moral dilemma.  Would you allow such a personal violation and betray someone's trust in order to save their life?  And not just theirs, but another person's life, as well?

The terms are not hers, they are the options presented to her.  The only way she can save these two lives is by sacrificing herself and doing something despicable.  But dilemma though this is, it is not our dilemma to solve, but Marion's.  And her conclusion is, yes, she will do this despicable thing in order to free them.

depends on just how much you value "honesty" relative to morality really. I see the sheriff's price as the most despicable. But her acceptance of it is just as or perhaps even more despicable. i ranked her above the sheriff because of her honestly, and only that. She must have been REALLY stupid or just a total slut. Has she thought "is this what robin would want? would he rather die than let me go through with this?" Some of the answers refer to choosing her as the best means strong women. I think it means the complete opposite of that. If she was really strong she would not be willing to barter with her body, she would not let her love of robin blind her into even thinking of accepting the deal. If shes a slut, well, i think "slut" is a "light" way of describing her acceptance of the sheriff's deal. It was practically acceptance of rape, not some casual sexual relationship if i may compare..

And remember that she is "bewildered" by Robin's reaction to this.  She wasn't expecting his reaction, she honestly believed she was doing the right thing.  The measure of morality is doing what we think is right.  And to Marion, saving two lives at the cost of herself and her love could only have been an agonizing decision.

and it was the wrong decision. If i was her i'd let robin rot and get him out some other way, murdering the sheriff and the rest of Sherwood if need be.

Robin Hood comes off an ungrateful dickhead, and while he certainly being honest about his feelings, as far as actions go, well, while it's not easy for people to control their thoughts or feelings, we do have control of our actions, and you could hardly say that Robin is acting in a moral fashion here.  His feelings are understandable, his outrage is forgivable, but abusing the woman who just saved his life is not justifiable.

agreed

We are, of course, given little glimpse into the background and the source of his feelings.  Maybe Robin had an elaborate escape plan underway, or maybe he'd rather die than betray Marion's trust, and maybe he expected she would die before betraying his.  But we aren't given any such detail, so that's speculation outside the goal of rating the morality of the actions displayed.  And the test encourages us to "forget any preconceived ideas" about the characters, so let's adhere to that.

lets pretend they were gonna die in prison otherwise.

...

Either way, these actions paint a dim portrait of the man, even before we account for the fact, the truth of Marion's love for Robin irrelevant, that it's hardly freely-given consent if it's extorted, that what the Sheriff did is tantamount to rape, and at the -very- least, it's a vile and repugnant way for any creature to behave, let alone a man at the helm of great power.

agreed.

and can i get a response to this? anyone?

the third result i mentioned i had is this (only minorly compared to the first 2):

jrsm
    Little John, Robin Hood, The Sheriff, Maid Marion

You are not easy to assess. Basically you are ruled by an inferiority complex and feelings of insecurity. How do you present yourself to the world? An idealist, a moralist, a conformist keeping up with the Joneses?

Men: Your conflicting views on sex and morality may lead to every sort of sexual problem. You have always feared women, probably starting with your mother.
^(this is wrong btw, i dont really fear women, especially my mom)

when i said this test was too black and white i meant there should be a rating of 1 to 5 (ie agree to strongly disagree, or something similar) so that we really only get 1 result.

[LordBucket]

thing is though robin was only a thief, he isnt a murderer or anything (in the story). What you're talking about is bad boy packages and i dont think this story would include those without giving more of a direct hint. Youre assuming too much.

You acknowledge that he's a thief, and the story states very clearly that he abuses Marion. What exactly am I assuming? Beating women is not ok. Glamorize the "steal from the rich to give to the poor" all you want, the guy beats his girlfriend. I rank beating your girlfriend lower than using power disparity to manipulate someone into willingly choosing to give you sex.

The primary problem I have with the Sheriff is not the sex at all. It's that he violated the oath of office (that I assume) he took, and released a criminal from custody in exchange for personal gain. If he'd accepted a cash bribe instead of sex, I would still rank him third.

her illusion was broken when he "abused" her

It's fine that she dumped Robin. But she then ran off with the first guy to offer. That's not consistent with the interpretation that she's in love with Robin. It is consistent with the interpretation that she just doesn't care very much whose woman she is. Which is also consistent with the fact that she had sex with the Sheriff and was "bewildered" that Robin would have a problem with it.

i would say her choice is very "limited" in the matter, and thus it is rape.

In what way was her choice limited?

She is selfish and stupid at best, and utter immoral at worst.

So then you apparently perceive Marion in a worse light than I do. I would call her shallow, but honest and well-intentioned.

this statement is pretty pointless, i know a bit of law and the courts certainly
find crimes of intent to be vastly worse than crimes of passion.

I thought we were discussing honesty and morality, not law.

ets assume she really does love robin and is doing it for his sake, and that
he truly loves her, you'll see why the following 2 make sense:

...ok, but why would you assume that? If we assume that she's actually a vampire and the Sheriff is a 12 year old, that would probably change things too. But there isn't much reason to think that.

Marion:

1) Does not know Robin well enough to know how he'll react to her sleeping with the Sheriff. She is bewildered by his reaction. She is not in love with him. She might be in love with some delusional fantasy she has about him, but not him.

2) Agrees to a "lifelong" arrangement with Little John, basically at the drop of a hat.

I don't look at this and conclude that she's in love with Robin. I look at this and conclude that she figures that "whatever" is probably ok. She could be with Robin...that's fine. She could have sex with the Sheriff, that's fine. She could marry Little John, that's fine. "Whatever."

I have a difficult time putting this up on a pedestal and glorifying her actions as some great sacrifice for the sake of love.

[Catsup]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

the guy beats his girlfriend. I rank beating your girlfriend lower than using power disparity to manipulate someone into willingly choosing to give you sex.

you dont seem to note that robin was in a fit of rage at what he saw as a betrayal from his other half, im not sure exactly what the law calls it, lets call it a "fit of rage" but you cant assume that he beats his girl on a regular basis just because he did it out of a "fit of rage".

power disparity is if your boss goes "*winks, yknow that promotion i was talking to you about, well why dont you come other to my bedroom for "tea" and we'll talk about it afterwards". Its different for this case because although he did not physically force her, he put her in a position where she had no other choice (which is arguable worse, i can literally picture her sobbing/gritting her teeth while he does her, and she just has to lay back and take it). You gain nothing if you refused the boss's offer in my example, she loses her soulmate if she refuses.

The primary problem I have with the Sheriff is not the sex at all. It's that he violated the oath of office (that I assume) he took, and released a criminal from custody in exchange for personal gain. If he'd accepted a cash bribe instead of sex, I would still rank him third.

i think you need to give some time to talk to yourself and re-evaluate your thought process...i see some really large holes in morality that you may want to check out...
^doesn't really apply since he's still thinking it's "just sex".

It's fine that she dumped Robin. But she then ran off with the first guy to offer. That's not consistent with the interpretation that she's in love with Robin.

you arent seeing it from her or robin's point of view. Had robin truly been in love with her, he would have forgiven her in the end even if he was going psychotic and was screaming with tears going out of his eyes, he would eventually forgive her when he calmed down. Had she truly been in love with robin, then she wouldnt have went along with it so easily, she'd stop to think about how robin would feel like if she did what she did.

rarely is love "true" but it is often very close, and these imperfect "loves" form feelings just as strong as the real thing. When robin reacted as he did, her Illusion finally broke and thus she did not "love" him anymore.

Which is also consistent with the fact that she had sex with the Sheriff and was "bewildered" that Robin would have a problem with it.

the reason she was bewildered is because she either truly thought that she was doing the right thing, or was really stupid and selfish. Either way she made the wrong choice, the result ended up with robin being hurt.

In what way was her choice limited?

if she truly loved robin and truly believed that going through with being violated was the only way to free him. i would say her choice is very "limited".

I thought we were discussing honesty and morality, not law.

it is valid usage to use reference to authority figures in an argument to prove a point.

lets assume she really does love robin and is doing it for his sake, and that
he truly loves her, you'll see why the following 2 make sense:

...ok, but why would you assume that? If we assume that she's actually a vampire and the Sheriff is a 12 year old, that would probably change things too. But there isn't much reason to think that.

"Maid Marion begged the Sheriff for their release, pleading her love for Robin." im also assuming she doesnt know what the sheriff would make her do in advance.

1) Does not know Robin well enough to know how he'll react to her sleeping with the Sheriff. She is bewildered by his reaction. She is not in love with him.

and it's also a very real possibility that despite all she knows about him, she does not know how he'll react if she were to sacrifice herself for his life.

She might be in love with some delusional fantasy she has about him, but not him.

a fantasy is enough, a fantasy isnt shallow, its false and will eventually be revealed, but it is NOT shallow.

2) Agrees to a "lifelong" arrangement with Little John, basically at the drop of a hat.

because her "fantasy" (i call it illusion) is broken and its probly a rebound relationship since the guy just picked her up at a moment's notice and she just accepted.

I don't look at this and conclude that she's in love with Robin. I look at this and conclude that she figures that "whatever" is probably ok. She could be with Robin...that's fine. She could have sex with the Sheriff, that's fine. She could marry Little John, that's fine. "Whatever."

we should probly just conclude that our outlook is different and leave it at that.

[Catsup]

I have a difficult time putting this up on a pedestal and glorifying her actions as some great sacrifice for the sake of love.

hah i bet i could make a drama movie out of this psych test that would make most ppl cry. I can literally imagine how some of the scenes would go.

[MorleyDev]

My opinion on if it is rape comes to where you stand on a simple question: If a man/woman guilts another man/woman into sex they do not want, is that rape? I'd say it's. If consent is coerced, it is invalid. And having seen how deeply that kind of thing can affect someone...well, I'll admit that is definitely colouring my interpretation of the scenario.