Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Centigrade]

I am interested to see how various trap components and non-native weapons stack up in weapon traps, as well as different materials. My go to for the moment is every weapon trap being a full rack of large, serrated steel discs; but, I am curious especially for embark locations without iron on how other materials and other weapons compare. Glass and wood are choices for making some of the trap component weapons, and I would also like to get some numbers for the damage done by stone fall traps using various stones. If there has been a lengthy discussion of these concerns already, then please feel free to just link me to it.

Thanks in advance.

[i2amroy]

To put it in short:
1)Large serrated discs are almost always the best thing to put in traps.
2)Weapons attack like normal in weapon traps, which means that extremely powerful weapons (such as whips) are still very powerful
3)Glass and wooden weapons suck against anything armored. However due to your ability to mass produce them compared to metal weapons/components, and the fact that in vanilla DF no invaders come fully armored, make them rather useful. A hallway filled with 10x green glass serrated discs will stop most things.
4)Stonefall traps suck IIRC. You are much better off just using weapon traps.

If you want more information on how powerful the various trap components are I would suggest reading the [i=http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Trap_component]trap component[/i] page on the wiki.

[Alastar]

Trap components are generally better than proper weapons - they're large and some have multiple hits.
Keep in mind that there's a balance between lethality and maintenance: instant kills result in stuck traps, and severed limbs mean more cleanup duty if miasma is a concern.

Steel disks are very lethal but maintenance-intensive; glass disks may be preferable to wear things down. Spikes and Spiked Balls reliably defeat armour especially when made of any metal. The former doesn't penetrate deep enough for instant kills (great for low-maintenance softening of humanoids), the latter skewers organs very well but gets stuck occasionally, hence I prefer to deploy them via upright spike traps.
Giant Axe Blades seem generally inferior to disks, and Corkscrews unfocused.

[albatross]

It occurred to me, would it be possible to make stone-fall traps more efficient if the boulder fell from a higher elevation? Is it even possible to arrange the trap as such? Keep in mind, I've never laid a single stone-fall trap. Or what if you dropped loose boulders from a few z-levels higher, with the assistance of hatches, pressure plates and mechanisms? Can falling objects damage the creatures below, and if so, does additional height add more damage?

[jonanlsh]

I love weapon traps.
My 4th fortess had a fully trapped hallway. One time a goblin siege came. I sealed the main corridor and left the trapped pathway open. The goblins hung around the entrance for 2 weeks before they decided the rush the trap hallway. One gobbo stepped into the 100% steel serrated disc trap, sending blood splashing across a 3x12 space of hallway.

I had never giggled so hard before in my life.

[itg]

It occurred to me, would it be possible to make stone-fall traps more efficient if the boulder fell from a higher elevation? Is it even possible to arrange the trap as such? Keep in mind, I've never laid a single stone-fall trap. Or what if you dropped loose boulders from a few z-levels higher, with the assistance of hatches, pressure plates and mechanisms? Can falling objects damage the creatures below, and if so, does additional height add more damage?

Stone-fall traps as listed on the build menu don't let you set the stone's elevation. The mechanic just brings the stone to the trap tile. I wouldn't bother with these traps.

Dropping boulders from hatches is definitely feasible, and it should be a lot more effective than the "official" stone-fall traps. It's kinda in the realm of those impractical and overengineered (i.e., dwarfy) defense systems that you build because you can, not because it's the simplest solution. As far as I know, height and weight both effect the damage falling items do, but the physics are a bit strange. Dropped socks can break bones and crush skulls, for instance.

[laularukyrumo]

I definitely remember someone conquering the HFS with their dirty laundry.

It was glorious.

edit: Mandatory background music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0xr31XbSOU

[SanDiego]

Stone fall traps have one advantage - they are incredibly cheap to make, only needing a mechanism (and a stone, obviously) to work; that makes them very useful if you are in need of mechanized defense early on.

On the topic of weapon traps - while trap components are more effective, I often end up using weapon traps to cover cavern entrances using weapons left behind by siegers and ambushers. Yes, it's not all that effective, yes, an occasional troll gets through with just grievous wounds to be skewered by miner, but it works and I can use my weapon-grade stuff to arm my own military.

[Dutchling]

You can also use ranged weapons in traps. While the trap itself won't be ranged and will need ammunition, they no longer get stuck or create multiple body parts to clean up.

[jonanlsh]

i always like to imagine that the enemies walk down an empty hallway, when the walls themselves re-arrange into 10 spinning saw blades that dismember the unfortunate victim. a sound of thunder accompanies the eruption of the specialized trap weapons as they burst out from the carved tunnel, impaling, smashing, severing and rending the goblins and trolls from limb to limb.

[vjek]

A few observations from my perspective.

Serrated disc are best at killing.  However, they also create enormous amounts of hauling jobs.  Wiping out an 80 goblin siege, plus mounts, and then cleaning up after them can be extremely time consuming.

Personally, I've found wooden spiked balls to be best at handling almost anything, given two facts: On most embarks, there is hundreds or thousands of trees, and second, the spiked balls don't create all those hauling jobs.

I've also found that trap hallways need pillars (walls) in the middle of them, and on the walls, to break line of sight and encourage goblins/invaders to path diagonally.  This, typically, ensures a much safer environment for the dwarves to retrieve body parts/goblinite.  Nothing worse than having 10 dwarven pincushions after an elite goblin bow squad leaves their mark.

On the subject of modding traps, I recently tried to create a dodge me trap as per the wiki (into lava) and found it to be near useless.  I changed the spiked ball trap (which can be done post-embark) to have 100 hits and found the results to be most satisfying. 

I then went on to modify a trap so that it threw the target a great distance, which was also rather entertaining.
YMMV of course, but that's how it worked for me.

Spoiler: trap_modifications (click to show/hide)

for dodge-me traps, modify spiked balls thusly:

[ITEM_TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_SPIKEDBALL]
[NAME:ball:balls]
[ADJECTIVE:spiked]
[SIZE:1]
[HITS:100]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:1]
[WOOD]
[METAL]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100000:1:strike:strikes:NO_SUB:100]

--

these throw trolls around:

[ITEM_TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_ENORMOUSCORKSCREW]
[NAME:corkscrew:corkscrews]
[ADJECTIVE:enormous]
[SIZE:10000]
[HITS:100]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:1]
[IS_SCREW]
[WOOD]
[METAL]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10:10000:drill:drills:NO_SUB:1000000]

[Ruhn]

I saw someone say they like to put hammers and mauls in some traps to soften enemies as opposed to kill.

Are spikes better to use than spears and pikes?

[CognitiveDissonance]

I saw someone say they like to put hammers and mauls in some traps to soften enemies as opposed to kill.

Are spikes better to use than spears and pikes?

Well, here are all the trap components, and all the weapons.
Presumption: Weapons will always use their first stated attack
Presumption: Size = damage. Wiki is uncertain, but my experience says that this is the case

Code: [Select]

Name Size Number of hits Contact Area Penetration Depth
Giant axe blade 1600 1 100000 10000
Enormous corkscrew 1600 1 100 10000
Spiked ball 1000 3 10 200
Large, serrated disc 1000 3 100000 10000
Menacing spike 1600 1 10 6000
Battle Axe 800 1 40000 6000
Crossbow 400 1 10000 -4000
Mace 800 1 20 -200
Pick (foreign) 500 1 100 4000
Short Sword 300 1 20000 4000
Spear 400 1 20 10000
War Hammer 400 1 10 -200
2H Sword 900 1 100000 8000
Blowgun (Melee) 150 1 10000 -4000
Bow (Melee) 300 1 10000 -4000
Flail 500 1 200 -4000
Great Axe 1300 1 60000 8000
Halberd 1200 1 20000 8000
Dagger (Large) 200 1 1000 800
Long Sword 700 1 60000 6000
Maul 1300 1 100 -6000
Morningstar 500 1 10 500
Pike 800 1 20 12000
Scimitar 300 1 20000 4000
Scourge 300 1 10 50
Whip 100 1 1 -10
Looking at all this, here how the trap components fare: (theorycrafting; haven't used weapon traps in this version)
- From a single hit, the Enormous Corkscrew should deal the absolute most damage, and can result in an instant kill
- The Giant Axe Blade deals almost as much damage (greater contact area) but it should sever something every time it hits
- Spiked Ball is by far the best bludgeoning weapon out there, due to its high size and positive penetration (second best is morning star). This should bruise muscle and break bones even when made from wood. Note: This doesn't really deal blunt damage, but often ends up doing so anyways. It'll either pierce and break something, or not pierce, deal blunt damage, and break something anyways
- Large, Serrated Disc deals almost as much damage as the Giant Axe Blade, but it hits three times from a single trigger. It will sever more things, but each hit is less likely to kill
- Menacing Spike is a mediocre weapon with generally good stats. It's very compareable to the Enormous Corkscrew.

As far as they compare to their weapon equivalents:

- Giant Axe Blade is better in every way over a Battle Axe
- Enormous Corkscrew is best compared to a Pick, and is superior (over 3x the size, over 2x the penetration)
- Spiked Ball is superior to all blunt weapons (1.25x the size of mace, 2.5x the size of a warhammer, better penetration. Also, 3 attacks.)
- Large, Serrated Disc is vastly superior to any slashing weapon due to multiple attacks and superior stats
- Menacing Spike is different from a spear. It has 4x the size (damage), half the contact area (localized damage) and 60% penetration. It should overall outperform the spear, but not necessarily the pike.


Traps do not mention anything to do with acceleration, which is a VERY significant factor to regular weapons. I would personally assume that acceleration from weapon traps is always 1x, making weapons like Whip relatively useless.

Further theorycrafting - I believe that piercing damage is blunt damage that penetrates. Therefore, piercing weapons made from heavy materials should perform the best. I imagine silver upright spikes would be incredibly deadly.

[gchristopher]

Personally, I've found wooden spiked balls to be best at handling almost anything, given two facts: On most embarks, there is hundreds or thousands of trees, and second, the spiked balls don't create all those hauling jobs.

Plus they're worth the same ridiculously high trade value as serrated discs and can be made infinitely from green glass, so can be your entire trade good industry confined to one magma glass furnace and one tile of sand. 30-some trap components fit in a bin, so only a few need hauled to the trade depot to buy out a caravan.

If a more deadly trap kills a creature instantly, then the corpse can jam the trap and require a dwarf to run into a potentially hazardous situation to clear it. Spiked balls tend to deliver more internal injuries that can result in a delayed death, which will not jam up the trap with a corpse. I've started only using one green glass spiked ball per trap just to reduce the deadliness of the trap, but several still jam per siege.

That's a good argument for using regular melee weapons, because one painful injury can break the morale of a unit leader who walks in first and cause the whole unit to flee the map, reducing the volume of clutter to clean up.

I think the summary is that all weapon traps are so effective, no matter what you put in them, that if you choose, you can use a trap hallway to ignore all attackers except trapavoid creatures.

[Di]

I like anvil-fall traps: you just dump several anvils atop of door and wait till some pesky thief attempts to sneak his way in. Ensure that your dwarfs don't use that door though.