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[Saraias]

*Edit: What am I talking about? It's 12 years, I suppose most people are normally bored by then.

One of the side effects of my priority on civilization-building and genealogy is that I have incentive to play forts for longer. I seem to think that things start to get interesting at 12+ years. There are interesting challenges and opportunities distinct to mature forts that I find interesting too. Clutter and FPS management aren't the most fun of these, admittedly. I get a lot of stories and imagination fodder from the events of forts over these time spans too. With the upcoming release, I may actually have some incentive to make some shorter-played forts, as I have some idea that I could establish a network of retired settlements before I start in on building a succession of full-on Mountainhomes.

As for the height breeding/eugenics project, War Boar, you could just go off of dwarfs' verbal descriptions. You may not have access to the numeric height values of the individuals, but we'd at least learn whether married pairs of dwarfs described as "tall" produce lineages that are likewise tall with any reliability. If height is shown to be inherited, one could also test deliberately mixed-height pairs to see if the children inherit an either/or height from one parent only or if it appears to blend. (I may take some time evaluating my existing lineages for trends along these lines.)

[Saraias]

I went through my population and selected 26 couples that contain at least one dwarf described as tall and examined their children. While I was at it, I kept track of ear shape too. Things don't seem to look too good for inherited ear shape. Height is a mixed bag. A program that arranges marriage by height may still be interesting.

Here's what I've got. Individuals are tagged W (wife), H (husband), C# (children). I noted the dwarfs who are large, too, but I suspect that's a girth rather than height thing.

W (Ast) tall
H (Vabok) tall

C1 tall (This one's special. Ast arrived as one of the Queen's guards and a single mother, the only one I've ever seen. Minkot here is that fatherless girl. She adores her stepdad though; they became friends well before he got to know her mom, and she hangs out with him in his office a lot - he's the manager.)
C2 no descriptor

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

H (Tulon) large, ears free-lobed
W (Adil) tall, ears free-lobed

C1 tall, ears free-lobed
C2 no descriptor
C3 average in size, no ear descriptor
C4 no descriptor height, ears somewhat broad, large hanging lobes

H (Kol) tall
W (Ushat) no descriptor

C1 no descriptor
C2 no descriptor
C3 no descriptor
C4 tall

W (Udil) tall, ears small lobed
H (Urvad) tall, no descriptor ears

C1 no descriptor height, broad fuse-lobed ears
C2 average, broad tall ears
C3 tall, no descriptorears
C4 no descriptor height, ears broad and short

W (Adil) no descriptor
H (As) tall

C1 no descriptor

H (Dastot) average size, ears small lobed
W (Likot) tall, ears free-lobed

C1 tall, ears fuse-lobed
C2 average, ears slightly flattened, great swinging lobes
C3 average, ears somewhat short and broad
C4 no descriptor size, ears small lobed
C5 tall, no descriptor ears

H (Litast) no descriptor
W (Kogan) tall

C1 no descriptor height, ears somewhat broad
C2 dismembered
C3 tall, ears extremely narrow
C4 no descriptor
C5 tall, no descriptor ears

W (Dobar) no descriptor height, ears free-lobed
H (Udil) tall

C1 tall, extremely narrow flattened ears
C2 no descriptor height, somewhat splayed out nearly fuse-lobed ears
C3 no descriptor height, somewhat narrow ears w/ great swinging lobes
C4 no descriptor height, ears somewhat tall

W (Amost) tall, ears small-lobed
H (Thikut) ears small-lobed

C1 no descriptor height, ears somewhat splayed out and broad
C2 no descriptor height, ears small-lobed
C3 tall, no descriptor ears

W (Zas) tall, ears slightly flattened small-lobed and broad
H (Kogan) large, ears free-lobed and broad

C1 tall, no descriptor ears
C2 no descriptor height, ears nearly fused lobes
C3 tall, no descriptor ears

W (Etur) tall
H (Kib) tall

C1 tall, ears fuse-lobed
C2 no descriptor

W (Rimtar) average size
H (onul) tall, ears slightly flattened and extraordinarily broad

C1 broad-bodied, no descriptor ears
C2 short and broad-bodied, ears slightly flattened
C3 dismembered
C4 no descriptor
C5 no descriptor height, ears somewhat narrow

H (Kulet) tall
W (Nish) no descriptor

C1 tall, ears small-lobed
C2 tall, no descriptor ears

W (Catten) tall, ears slightly flattened
H (ezum) ears slightly flattened

C1 no descriptor

H (Olon) tall, ears slightly flattened somewhat short
W (Zaneg) no descriptor

C1 tall, no descriptor ears
C2 tall, ears short w/ great swinging lobes

H (Erib) tall, ears slightly flattened and extraordinarily broad
W (Logem) ears somewhat short and somewhat narrow

C1 no descriptor
C2 no descriptor height, ears free-lobed and somewhat short

H (Minkot) tall
W (Ineth) ears extraordinarily broad

C1 no descriptor height, ears flattened
C2 no descriptor height, ears somewhat broad and somewhat splayed out
C3 no descriptor
C4 average in size, ears great swinging lobes
C5 no descriptor height, ears slightly flattened

W (Astesh) tall
H (Edem) no descriptor

C1 tall, ears somewhat splayed out and free-lobed
C2 tall, no descriptor ears
C3 short, no descriptor ears
C4 tall, ears free-lobed

H (Zuglar) tall, ears slightly flattened
W (Amost) no descriptor

C1 no descriptor
C2 tall, ears slightly flattened
C3 tall, no descriptor ears
C4 tall, no descriptor ears
C5 no descriptor

H (Edem) average size
W (Udib) tall

C1 no descriptor
C2 tall, no descriptor ears
C3 average size, ears somewhat broad with great swinging lobes

H (Sakzul) tall
W (Avuz) tall, ears slightly flattened and broad

C1 tall, ears extremely narrow
C2 no descriptor height, ears somewhat narrow

W (Rakust) tall, ears small-lobed
H (Ducim) tall, ears slightly flattened

C1 no descriptor height, ears slightly flattened
C2 no descriptor height, ears somewhat broad and slightly flattened
C3 no descriptor height, ears very short
C4 tall, ears small-lobed and slightly flattened
C5 no descriptor height, ears small-lobed and somewhat splayed out
C6 no descriptor height, ears nearly fuse-lobed and very splayed out
C7 no descriptor height, ears slightly flattened
C8 no descriptor

H (Deler) tall, ears small-lobed
W (Id) tall, ears somewhat broad and free-lobed

C1 no descriptor
C2 average size, ears somewhat broad flattened and very short

H (Sazir) tall, ears slightly flattened
W (Adil) tall

C1 no descriptor height, ears somewhat narrow
C2 no descriptor
C3 no descriptor
C4 tall, ears slightly flattened
C5 no descriptor height, ears very short
C6 tall, no descriptor ears
C7 tall, ears somewhat narrow

H (Olin) average size
W (Litast) tall, ears slightly flattened

C1 no descriptor

H (Medtob) tall, ears slightly flattened and small-lobed
W (Ral) dismembered

C1 tall, no descriptor ears
C2 tall, ears slightly flattened and narrow
C3 no descriptor height, ears small-lobed
C4 tall, no descriptor ears
C5 no descriptor
C6 tall, no descriptor ears

[Mapleguy555]

PTW

[Grumbledwarfskin]

I did some careful reading of the raws on a similar subject a while back, trying to determine how common it would be for dwarves to be large enough to wield a two-hander in one hand...my initial conclusion was that every fort would have one or two, if the civ was diverse in size, but nobody was able to find such a dwarf at the time.

It might help to increase the APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE of dwarves' BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT and BROADNESS before generating your world, so that they're more likely to show up in the dwarves' descriptions. Those should be the largest (and possibly only) modifiers of a dwarf's weight. (It's not quite clear in the raws whether broadness, height, and length of body parts affects the weight of said body parts, or whether that's only true of the broadness, height, and length of whole bodies...and it's something that's difficult to test in an un-modded fortress...though I suppose one could edit the raws so that all dwarves have noses that are 20,000 times larger than average, and see if dwarves in that world weigh significantly more or not.)

I do believe there's a foolproof, if perhaps time consuming, way to determine who the tallest, fattest dwarves are in the current version, however: from what I understand, we now have weight-sensitive pressure plates, which could be used to detect your heavy dwarves, even if their descriptions don't show their height or weight.

[Dwarven War Boar]

Snip

Yeah I definitely agree regarding long term forts, I also can't help but cringe when I see someone talking about scooping the candy a couple of years in, although this is probably due to me assuming that this should be one of the last things you do and I like to have a fully fleshed out and interesting fort in case "something" goes wrong.

Anyway, your information is interesting, but with the new information in the comment above, the issue is that certain traits may not have appeared to be readable, but still existed (assuming I'm actually understanding this correctly). Regarding the ears, you were right. When looking at your data it's worrying as far as feature inheritance goes, but there may be an explanation. It seems in some cases to appear as you would expect, with a child having the same ears as the parent, but if the information about recessive traits and unreadable information is also correct, then it could possibly explain away much of the odd variation. And it would appear that much is still to be discovered about recessiveness.

Also,

C3 dismembered

For a second I was thinking "Huh? Birth defects?" haha.

I did some careful reading of the raws on a similar subject a while back, trying to determine how common it would be for dwarves to be large enough to wield a two-hander in one hand...my initial conclusion was that every fort would have one or two, if the civ was diverse in size, but nobody was able to find such a dwarf at the time.

It might help to increase the APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE of dwarves' BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT and BROADNESS before generating your world, so that they're more likely to show up in the dwarves' descriptions. Those should be the largest (and possibly only) modifiers of a dwarf's weight. (It's not quite clear in the raws whether broadness, height, and length of body parts affects the weight of said body parts, or whether that's only true of the broadness, height, and length of whole bodies...and it's something that's difficult to test in an un-modded fortress...though I suppose one could edit the raws so that all dwarves have noses that are 20,000 times larger than average, and see if dwarves in that world weigh significantly more or not.)

I do believe there's a foolproof, if perhaps time consuming, way to determine who the tallest, fattest dwarves are in the current version, however: from what I understand, we now have weight-sensitive pressure plates, which could be used to detect your heavy dwarves, even if their descriptions don't show their height or weight.

I suppose it should have been somewhat obvious before, but I never actually realised that certain information would technically exist but wouldn't appear, e.g. a tall dwarf without the tall descriptor. I just assumed this was another "average" for some reason. From what I can see in the raws, setting it to 1000 guarantees its appearance. The file "creature_standard" doesn't appear in the pre-gen objects folder without manually adding it does it? Maybe I've simply managed to bugger something up, you never know. Amazing how you can think you're comfortable with raw editing and such, but discover there is still much to learn.

Regarding the pressure plate idea (though it does seem like a time-consuming method), I'm sure you can't finely tune the weight settings in such small incremental amounts for it to be viable.

[Dwarven War Boar]

Bump for information.

[expwnent]

PTW


Did something kind of similar way back when: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=111624.0

[Saraias]

Did something kind of similar way back when: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=111624.0

That was a great thread to read. I came back here today to post an oddity that just occurred, and somehow missed your reply originally. Thank you.

Btw, from my saves I can thoroughly refute the idea that all civs will always have the same hair/eye/skin tones. The world I've been playing the past year has one dwarven civ that has uniform skin/hair (dark peach/sandy taupe/eyes variable); one with largely uniform skin, slight hair variety, and multiple eye colors (pink/burnt umber, brown, taupe/many); and several with considerable diversity. My favored civ is the pink dwarves (only the king consort and his brother have/had light brown skin and I've sheltered these brown royals carefully), and I went to some contortions to introduce dwarves from one of the diverse civs to mix things up. (This says nothing of the delightfully diverse goblins who come to visit... my current fort neighbors a goblin civ who are mostly mint green and forest green with shocks of many red hues for hair; the last were darker green shades with purple-toned tresses - lavender blush most common.)

I was particularly interested in the information posted by slink in the other thread about children with different eye color from their parents. I do a lot of bloodline management and pay a lot of attention to the next generations and hadn't seen that before. I've always had children who demonstrate either the mother's or the father's skin tone, hair color, and eye color, in cases where the parents aren't the same.

Yesterday, a couple wherein the mother's skin is burnt umber and the father's is copper had their fifth child. Eldest (son) has burnt umber skin, second (daughter) copper, third (son) burnt umber, fourth (daughter) burnt umber, newborn daughter's skin is ecru.

As the first child to spontaneously manifest a skin tone not present in either parent nor any dwarf currently in the Handles of Mortality, she will be cherished. The ecru daughter is already promised in marriage to a royal son.

Anyway, I've no way to check if ecru was a buried recessive from the diverse civ that supplied her parents, some sort of blending, or a spontaneous mutation, but found it interesting enough to share, aberrant as it is.