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[Safe-Keeper]

Okay, so I'm playing an outpost and digging out defenses in Masterwork DF when, all of a sudden, dragon raports. I activate my militia while the birdies kill two of my dwarves. Out of the surviving five, four decide this would be an excellent time for some chow or a drink. Battle commenced with  -- such as dwarves charging the raptors without bothering to pick up weapons. Don't know how many of these things were my fault, but either way, when I had only one dorf left and most of my lifestock was dead or mutilated beyond hope of survival, I abandoned the settlement.

This, the last of many frustrations picking up DF again, prompted me to make a topic, a sort of rant if you will, at how much it nags at me to have wounded/dead dwarves to things that shouldn't be challenges in the first place. Dwarves who can't do simple things like digging channels without falling in or causing cave-ins. Expedition leaders who never get around to talk to emissaries because they prioritize sleeping or putting seeds in stockpiles. The apparent inability to give direct orders when you really, really need to (as in, "you there, pull that lever. Now"). Patients dying of thirst or hunger because no one bothers to feed them. Lack of mouse support. Different key binding logic from menu to menu. Inefficient UI (having to hit 'n' key for new to add individual things to your list when you could've just gone into the list and hit + by each item to start adding them, for example). Inability to preview embark sites before going through the hassle of choosing items. The list goes on and on.

I don't mind bugs and problems with a game, especially one that is essentially a hobby project, but these are issues that have been around for as long as I can remember -- I remember the "dwarves eat, drink and sleep at ridiculous times" issue coming up in Boatmurdered, and that was back when DF still had only one z-level!

:puppy eyes:
Toady, I hugely respect your work and have the utmost respect for your talent and dedication, and I sincerely believe DF is a fantastic game with lots of potential, and after posting this I'm diving right back in to start a new fort -- but please, isn't it time to go into polishing mode and iron out all the kinks before adding even more features?

[Loud Whispers]

Battle commenced with  -- such as dwarves charging the raptors without bothering to pick up weapons.

Were they assigned and in a stockpile of some such kind? Did you station them somewhere out of battle first so they could pick up equipment without interference from raptors?

Dwarves who can't do simple things like digging channels without falling in or causing cave-ins.

Dorfs'll dig channels from the side they approached it from, they've stopped digging tiles while standing on them unless it's the only place they can stand on. Don't designated more than one level to be dug at a time. Currently this penchance for cave ins is due to DF's abstraction of support, once it becomes more realistic this shouldn't be a problem.
Maybe.

Expedition leaders who never get around to talk to emissaries because they prioritize sleeping or putting seeds in stockpiles.

Wait till you get proper nobles who do nothing else but talk. And mandate.

The apparent inability to give direct orders when you really, really need to (as in, "you there, pull that lever. Now").

This is much suggested, for good reason.

Patients dying of thirst or hunger because no one bothers to feed them.

Use burrows, Dwarf personalities are currently quite strange. Soon to change.

Inability to preview embark sites before going through the hassle of choosing items.

This is a feature. Could change with the advent of an oregon trail style addition of the game, where you'll literally survey your future embark site!

Toady, I hugely respect your work and have the utmost respect for your talent and dedication, and I sincerely believe DF is a fantastic game with lots of potential, and after posting this I'm diving right back in to start a new fort -- but please, isn't it time to go into polishing mode and iron out all the kinks before adding even more features?

I think it's more to do with him doing both and making priorities on what to fix and add.

[Putnam]

I think a polishing arc would be a bad idea with the game being less than 50% done.

Next version will probably only be 38% done or so (I.E 0.36-40.01). Polishing that will only make problems later on more pronounced.

[Psieye]

Expedition leaders who never get around to talk to emissaries because they prioritize sleeping or putting seeds in stockpiles.

The latter is you not micromanaging. The former won't last long.

The apparent inability to give direct orders when you really, really need to (as in, "you there, pull that lever. Now").

Can be done. 1x1 burrow, shove every civilian in there (via alert). Now the ONLY thing they can do is pull that lever.


Make no mistake, DF has a clunky UI and plenty of undesirable kinks. But they are tolerable at this point and there is no point to having Toady fix something that's not going to be there in the future anyway. A lot of the game is placeholder code that will need to be scrapped as real content starts to drift in over the years.

Mind, I argue that having (more) mouse support would only make the UI worse, not better. The little mouse support we already have is sensible, the keyboard makes the micromanagement tolerable.

[Matoro]

but these are issues that have been around for as long as I can remember -- I remember the "dwarves eat, drink and sleep at ridiculous times" issue coming up in Boatmurdered, and that was back when DF still had only one z-level!

Do you know why those "issues" have been around so long?

Because they're not issues. Dwarves are stupid, it's the idea of the game. Dwarf Fortress is not about total control, it's about trying to manage things without total control. The randomness of the game is what makes it so replayable and entertaining.

[Valikdu]

*cough* Bone stack bug *cough*

[Psieye]

but these are issues that have been around for as long as I can remember -- I remember the "dwarves eat, drink and sleep at ridiculous times" issue coming up in Boatmurdered, and that was back when DF still had only one z-level!

Do you know why those "issues" have been around so long?

Because they're not issues. Dwarves are stupid, it's the idea of the game. Dwarf Fortress is not about total control, it's about trying to manage things without total control. The randomness of the game is what makes it so replayable and entertaining.

Actually, there's a personality re-write planned for the future. It aims to make dwarves 'less stupid'. The net result will be that you get even less control than now.

[Dutchling]

A polishing arc would be awesome on the short term but complementary pointless in the long run.

[Beyondrepair]

DF has "polish" nowhere in its mission statement.

If you attain some insight into some of the algorithms that have been implemented in DF you'll see why it's such a balancing act between efficiency (FPS), polish (including AI), and development time.

[Meph]

From my perspective all the things you listed are not bugs, but user errors. Yes, the UI is horrible, but all things you wanted to do/wanted to avoid can be done by using the tools you have to their full extent. Caveins, starving patients, not-lever-pulling, busy expeditions leaders... these are no problems a seasoned player has.

[CognitiveDissonance]

but these are issues that have been around for as long as I can remember -- I remember the "dwarves eat, drink and sleep at ridiculous times" issue coming up in Boatmurdered, and that was back when DF still had only one z-level!

Do you know why those "issues" have been around so long?

Because they're not issues. Dwarves are stupid, it's the idea of the game. Dwarf Fortress is not about total control, it's about trying to manage things without total control. The randomness of the game is what makes it so replayable and entertaining.

Actually, there's a personality re-write planned for the future. It aims to make dwarves 'less stupid'. The net result will be that you get even less control than now.

Really? I'm incredibly excited by that. Where can I read about it?

From my perspective all the things you listed are not bugs, but user errors. Yes, the UI is horrible, but all things you wanted to do/wanted to avoid can be done by using the tools you have to their full extent. Caveins, starving patients, not-lever-pulling, busy expeditions leaders... these are no problems a seasoned player has.

For better or for worse, this is true.


That said, I would love to see a bug-fixing round after the current major release. At the same time, many issues are caused by outdated systems that WILL be replaced - so in a way, it's better to ignore the bugs and wait for them to be done properly.

[Putnam]

Really? I'm incredibly excited by that. Where can I read about it?

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html

That said, I would love to see a bug-fixing round after the current major release. At the same time, many issues are caused by outdated systems that WILL be replaced - so in a way, it's better to ignore the bugs and wait for them to be done properly.

Bug-fixing rounds always come after major releases.

[CognitiveDissonance]

Really? I'm incredibly excited by that. Where can I read about it?

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_single.html

Hmm, I don't see anything about major revamps to personality. Dwarven personality is marked as completed, and will be simply expanded upon to interact with the world better. At least that's what I found by searching the page for "personal"

That said, I would love to see a bug-fixing round after the current major release. At the same time, many issues are caused by outdated systems that WILL be replaced - so in a way, it's better to ignore the bugs and wait for them to be done properly.

Bug-fixing rounds always come after major releases.

I haven't followed previous bug fixes closely, so I don't know if long-standing bugs get addressed. Still, I look forward to the next release and ALL THE BUGS

[Psieye]

Really? I'm incredibly excited by that. Where can I read about it?

I forget exactly where in the literature it is. Either a DF talk or a FotF post. Probably the former. The one where he talks about guilds, religions and maybe other factions too. Faction politics and family issues would intertwine.

[Trif]

Really? I'm incredibly excited by that. Where can I read about it?

I forget exactly where in the literature it is. Either a DF talk or a FotF post. Probably the former. The one where he talks about guilds, religions and maybe other factions too. Faction politics and family issues would intertwine.

Yes, the personality rewrite comes up on DF Talk all the time. I think it was explained pretty well on DF Talk #12, here is the transcript.