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[Vector]

The difference is that one is a power fantasy and the other one is someone else's sexual fantasy.  Both serve men.  Poorly, perhaps, but men are the target audience, not women.

[penguinofhonor]

If male characters were actually designed for sex appeal to women, we'd have armies of Edward Cullens running around, not muscley wrestlers.

[Glowcat]

Yeah. Let's be honest here, most women aren't into heavy bulksters. Light muscles or medium at most.

Heavy muscles appeal to the MANLY MAN dude contingent of gamers. Those who also play games like Madden Football.

[Max White]

The difference is that one is a power fantasy and the other one is someone else's sexual fantasy.  Both serve men.  Poorly, perhaps, but men are the target audience, not women.

How can you tell the difference?
I mean look at a lot of games and you have exactly what Penguin is describing. Looking at you Dante!
Why is this character a mans self reflection fantasy instead of a womans sexual fantasy?

Maybe I am severally misunderstanding what women want, I don't know, but it seems to me that a lot of male protagonists are sexually appealing to women.

[Mlamlah]

I think you're going to have trouble properly quanitfying this issue because societally women are allowed to have much more varied tastes in men than men are in women.

If men don't like the rather limited varieties of women that are generally considered "attractive" then they will more often than not get bewilderment as a reaction.

[Solifuge]

The difference is that one is a power fantasy and the other one is someone else's sexual fantasy.  Both serve men.  Poorly, perhaps, but men are the target audience, not women.

How can you tell the difference?
I mean look at a lot of games and you have exactly what Penguin is describing. Looking at you Dante!
Why is this character a mans self reflection fantasy instead of a womans sexual fantasy?

Maybe I am severally misunderstanding what women want, I don't know, but it seems to me that a lot of male protagonists are sexually appealing to women.

...even if so, surely you wouldn't contend that stripping a warrior woman down to a chainmail bikini would be a female power fantasy?

[Max White]

I don't know, would it?
Are there women out there that wish they could be like Bayonetta and shoot things with their heels?

[Frumple]

Not sure about expressly like Bayonetta, as I've never played the game or particularly noticed much media related to it, but I'd rather say being able to shoot people with your heels are a universal appeal.

Not necessarily the... the pointy ones that I've forgotten the freaking name of _{how the hell do you do that I mean it's been a long damn time since I've tried wearing any and let me just say those fucking things are miserable but still} -- shooting something with your heels is something Bond would do, honestly. S'just something a tech-y, capable gadget user would do, yeah?

[Vector]

The word you're looking for is "stiletto," hoho.

[Frumple]

Well, yes, but I was thinking more about the less stiletto-y heels. Like, uh. Normal ones? Not quite knife pointed, just frakking impossible to walk comfortably in. I think my mind is getting confused and wanting to say they have some sort of name beyond just heels? Just woke up, brain no worky ;_;

[Max White]

The point wasn't exactly the heels, it was just shorthand for all the things that define that character, including skin tight outfit.
So to put it less subtly, there are female characters that appear sexually attractive to men, are these same characters idolized by women? Do women see the 'sexy' video game character and wish they could look like that, in a similar way to many guys see attractive looking males in video games and wish they could emulate the image.

[Frumple]

*scratches head* Probably to some degree? It's hard to say... how fucked up body image, especially for women, is is a topic that extends pretty far from video games. A lot of VG stuff is only marginally exaggerated beyond what the more general media ideal seems to be, yeah? Someone who actually pays attention to that sort of thing could probably say yea or nay with more certainty.

[DJ]

Judging by the size of the fashion industry and the trends it promotes, I'd say that majority of women do want to look more sexy.

[Max White]

So with that in mind, why is it that a 'sexy' female character is a male sexual fantasy, rather than a female self reflection fantasy? Why can't it be both? Are we scared to admit that women have sexuality? Or am I missing the point. I mean lets be honest, I am a white heterosexual male aged 20 to 30 who is financially doing alright. If anybody is going to misunderstand how discrimination works and need a break down of the situation, I am willing to admit I am a prime candidate.

[Loud Whispers]

Is there a reason that the guy is wearing a Chainmail Banana Hammock that shows off his endowment? Or do you just want to show off his package?

The idea of using sexuality against a character is the idea of sexualising something that shouldn't be sexualised because their characterisation doesn't support it. It is in otherwords forced sexualisation.

This, oh indeed so much. Going around saying female characters aren't allowed to be sexy is not the way forward.

But say there was a mainstream game that forced their female characters into a bizarre sexualized role?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Could you imagine them in chainmail bikinis? No. They did it right.

Going around forcing characters into out of character sexualized roles, that is not the way forward either.

I wouldn't mind at all. What I do mind is that people would find this strange, or offsetting, or even sexist, and not bat an eye when this same thing happens to female characters in a lot of games.

Huh?

As well Duke Nukem has always been a Parody Cake of itself.

To such an extent that honestly... lets face it... some of them weren't really a parody.

Crude jokes. REALLY crude. Unfired clay. No substance. No charm. No plot. No humour. No game mechanics of note. Nothing appealing. Appalling game.

Putting males in loincloths seems like an awesome equalizer to me. But they should deobjectify men a bit to balance that out. For example, have you noticed how male characters are all ridiculously muscular? They should be made to look more like real-life men, ie beer gut, moobs and maybe a bit of a neckbeard.

Real-life men in any environment of physical tenor will become ripped. It's something almost guaranteed, unless the character is old. It's a male secondary characteristic that most all young males develop. Making male characters troglodytes in loincloths because that way we can have chainmail bikinis...? Hell, female characters doing the same thing would get ripped too. It's just that with a predominately heterosexual male audience, it's mostly unnoticed when male characters get their sexy on than with females.

Wrong direction.
I like what Nier (the American version) does with Nier, the male protagonist is ripped (which makes sense regarding the storyline) and goes around half naked yet his face is fucking ugly. He doesn't go around sporting some unrealistic bishy glamour, and he has real sincere character for it.

There's something called the Bechdel test, which measures female presence in some medium.  Do two named female characters have a conversation about something other than a man?  Surprisingly, most media doesn't pass this test.

I think this one has already been covered.

You certainly can't argue that Batman's character arc is built by Catwoman, but you can argue that Catwoman's arc is built by Batman.

It's called the Batman universe because batman is the main character. Nearly all material happening in that universe is from Batman's perspective. Catwoman's arc is built by Batman as much as Robin's.
And even then she still maintains her entirely separate story arc about stealing from Hugo Strange.

  Similarly, Harley Quinn and the Joker, Talia and Raz Al'Ghul.  In all of these cases there's a pretty clear disparity of power and importance, where the powerful man is highly influential in the woman's story, but the woman's story is not very influential on the man's.

And to reduce their relationships down to one dimensional "YOU ARE WOMAN, I AM PENIS, SUBMIT," would be to ignore everything about their characters, their stories and everything that makes them human. Ironically, you're reducing them to objects by stripping them of all context.

I can tell you that none of my favorite games other than Portal do, and it helps that there aren't any male characters at all in that one.

If you want to get technical, GLaDOS is an AI and Chell doesn't talk.

If you want to get technical, Glados is

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Caroline in a computer. Cyborg machine-spirit thing.

-snip-

So yeah, you missed my point entirely. Or you're mentally rejecting it and replacing it with your own version. Or you're arguing for the sake of argument. I'm not really sure anymore.

Quite simple really if you look at the sequence of posts that led to that.

Statement: Sexism is not dead in modern mainstream games.
Argument: Sexism is dead in modern mainstream games [list of mainstream games of 2011 | 2012].
Argument: Above statement is wrong [list of games that sexualized female characters. And Duke Nukem].
Argument: Above statement is treating sexualization as objectification.

1) Let's start with Arkham Asylum. Completely ignoring the sexualization, each of the female characters in those scenes have something in common. They are trapped in the plots and machinations of a man, helpless to free themselves from their situation.

1. The sexualization isn't pointless nor forced, it is a part of their character in every same way as any other character - and it's a strength for Catwoman which she downright abuses. As for Talia, Talia gets the closest to being sexy when she wears a leather jacket that exposes her collarbones. Harley is crazy, in every sense of the craziness. She is more terrifying than terrifyingly sexy.
2. Batman is trapped in the machinations of three men and relies on two women to free himself from that situation. You are drawing a line where you say women in games are supposed to be Mary Sues who are perfect in every way? Why? All of the characters are interdependent. Catwoman frees herself and only nearly falls victim because she didn't expect Twoface to have two guns. That was her underestimating Twoface, treating him like another incompetent crime boss. The second time when she is nearly sniped might have something to do with batman having multi-billion dollar electronics whereas catwoman relies on her skill. When batman tells her to stay off the streets where it's safe catwoman goes around the streets, TYGER compounds and the literal home of several villains.

• Harley Quinn, a naive and pretty messed-up girl, is utterly dependent on the deranged Joker. Her world revolves around him, and she has no independent agency, or will of her own. The moment she shows any (she wants a peek under Batman's mask) the Joker barks at her and she shrinks away and back to his side. Yeah, girl power!

You do know in their relationship they have frequently tried to kill each other at multiple points, and Quinn's got closer to it than the Joker?
Also completely ignoring my original point whereupon Harley's unconditional love is presented as insane. She IS insane. She wants the Joker to recognize his feelings for her, but the moment the Joker realizes any capability for love is the moment that also prompts the Joker's psychosis and they usually end up trying to kill each other. The game does not idolize this, nor is Harley in any respect naive nor spinelessly dependent - she holds the entire criminal organization up (brutally even) while the Joker is incapacitated and outsmarts the goddamn Batman. And nearly succeeds in killing Robin for revenge

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

YOU KILLED HIM! YOU DID IT! NOW YOU KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO LOSE THE ONE YOU LOVE!

• Talia al Ghul is trapped under the will of her father. Only Batman can free her by killing her father, and making Talia his bride. Seriously? Even though it doesn't happen, this is Talia's introduction to the story. "Man deposes Evil Overlord and rescues Princess" is the exact trope you are trying to pretend doesn't exist anymore.

No it's not. I do not condemn you for not reading every single post in this thread, but now you're talking about the literary trope - which in of itself is not sexist, when I was talking about objectification being dead. I do not pretend, I only try to understand. Calling someone ignorant is hardly the way to progress towards understanding, if you would so wish to seek it.

Copy pasted from the previous post:
"Ra's Al Ghul, her father, in universe is misogynist and does believe women to be inferior to men. Yet he appointed her his second in command because she far exceeded her siblings. Her getting lovey over the batman is a result of the two actually having a romantic past, which her father exploits. Standalone from any fluff, she is the leader of a powerful organisation of assassins, incredibly skilled on her own whilst retaining a compassionate empathy streak.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

She is the one to give batman the cure to the poison, and is never actually confirmed dead.

Her father is literally a 600 year old patriarch and is one of the villains. Yep, really supporting sexism there."

She is a brilliant character with conflicting loyalties between her love, her family and her goal. Which happens to be world peace through genocide by the way. And you're reducing her to a Princess.

2) Portal was a great example of a good female protagonist, which I never contested. It may be part of why so many of my ladyfriends loved Portal so much; a story where you play as a capable and interesting female character, in a conflict with other characters; among whom is a deranged and essentially female computer overlord. Portal 1 and 2 had the same protagonist, so I don't understand your point in attacking my words. Are you're just playing Devil's Advocate here?

"You also cite Portal as an example, though it came out over 5 years ago." <- That was you. Attack is a very powerful word, for an otherwise harmless point of information. I put the charts of the top mainstream games up and you apparently didn't even read them whilst simultaneously responding to my post, because if you had read it you would have seen Portal 2 up high on the list, and wouldn't have made the erroneous claim I was asserting the first Portal game came out in the world of yesteryear.

3) Yes, Dead or Alive spinoffs are minimal games acting more as glorified porn, via skimpy clothes and a boob-physics simulator. And yet they are interactive media, and they represent women purely as sexual objects.

Point being they are not mainstream games. I wouldn't even warrant calling them a game. People don't praise them for the story or whatever.

Same goes for Bayonetta, though they tack on some ass-kicking and a veneer of a personality to disguise the rampant objectification. My point stands for both.

Bayonetta? An object?
Well if you ignore all of her characterization.
If you call her a sex-object hiding behind personality then if you asked someone who actually played the game what they think of Bayonetta as a character, all they would be able to come up with would be:

Sexy ass-kicker.

Or she is a hyper-sexualized character you are marginalizing.

4) It doesn't even matter if Duke Nukem was the worst-grossing game of all time, and everyone hated it. It was a mainstream game, and the women it represented were either helpless and fawning over the main character, reduced to sexual objects, or brutalized horrifically. It's part of our culture now. We cannot make Duke Nukem Forever unhappen.

Everyone who wasn't Duke Nukem was reduced to an object. EVEN DUKE NUKEM TO DUKE NUKEM. YOU ARE TRYING TO TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY?
That's about the second time I've used caps in this thread. Sheesh. Some things are just that silly.

So yeah, my point continues to be that the problems of minimization of the role of empowered women, the rampant objectification of women (sexually and otherwise), and the prevalence of distressed damselhood are not things of the past, which you are asserting they are. Do you agree with me, or is the world of gender equality in video games all sunshine and roses?

I like the part where you were sarcastic and ignored every mainstream game on the chart[/list]