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[Descan]

Sometimes. Usually not even that, just "shiny thing to win" instead of "plot coupon".

[Neonivek]

Sometimes. Usually not even that, just "shiny thing to win" instead of "plot coupon".

Often it really isn't even that. Mario and Peach's relationship for example can be debated as just... not having one with the kiss simply being a thank you.

With him rescuing her not because she is a reward but rather because she is someone who needs rescuing. She isn't a trophy to be won but a person in need.

Which is kinda why Peach, while on the surface is the perfect example of a damsel in distress, often doesn't feel like one in all areas... because she has perfect autonomy and her life really doesn't revolve around Mario, in fact she instigates most of their time together.

Remember in her story of the very first known Damsel in Distress story, Percius takes the damsel as his bride. Mario and Peach arn't even dating (In fact there is more to suggest she has a romantic relationship with Bowser)

So sometimes the woman is delegated to "She is there".

Yet this could also be because the trope itself is evolving. Hense why I consider gender actually not being part of the modern version of that trope and that essentially anyone can play that role irregardless of age, sex, and race and that females fulfilling that role is more of a throwback then a purer example of that trope.

[Max White]

Sometimes. Usually not even that, just "shiny thing to win" instead of "plot coupon".

But in the majority of cases where this is true, the plot is so simplified that you can't actually expand a character to much more.
In the main Super Mario series, Peach could have been replaced with a very nice can of soup that both Mario and Bowser are some what fond of, but the plot of these games is 'Girl is kidnapped by dragon, guy saves her' and that is literally it.
Then you go play Super Paper Mario, where they have a plot, and suddenly Peach is a real character! It is almost as if a characters depth is related to the depth of the story...

Also, I hate it when people mix up objectification in language with objectification as an embodiment of a concept and objectification as dehumanizing. Three words all sound the save, but they are different.
Just because 'X is Y to Z' does not mean Z is being objectified in a humanitarian way, it is just sentence structure.

[Toady One]

I removed the troll post and replies to it, and muted Hiiri for a week.  Please proceed in a civil and chill fashion as you continue on your journey through this topic.

[Neonivek]

Yeah but just because peach could be replaced with a REALLY tasty bowl of soup it doesn't mean she was objectified in a dehumanising way.

[Max White]

No not really...
If in the Paper Mario Games, or any game where there is a much more detailed story, the female protagonist amounted to not much more than wonder soup, however, that raises an eyebrow.

[Mlamlah]

I think the issue might less be specific examples and more the overwhelming trend of how women are treated in games. On their own, these examples just make for individual stories that say very little about the big picture. But if you were to make a collage of all of the ways women are represented in video games the overwhelming majority would tend towards "Helpless sex object" with a little bit of "Bad-ass warrior heroine" thrown in. There just is not anywhere near as much variety when it comes to female characters, just the same old recycled tropes.

To be fair, male characters often use a lot of the same old tropes too, but that isn't necessarily evidence that sexism is not present in the video-game industry. For instance, how many male sex objects show up? I can't think of many, and those that i do think of are more for their cool factor than for their sex appeal. How often do guys crush on female characters for their ability to overcome the odds and for their well rounded and interesting character? Rarely. More often i see "Well she's kinda hot, but she's not unlike any of the other hundreds of scantily clad bimbos i see constantly in video-games."  This is a norm, with the exception being occasional interesting female characters.

[Max White]

Well yes, I agree. Pointing out specific cases is pretty useless.
Yet that is all she did in this video. She could have talked to publishers and producers and developers with the money she raised, but instead just pointed out cases of the use of this trope in examples that, by themselves as self contained games, don't actually prove a point.

It would have been possible for her to find a developer to tell a story about why their female protagonist got changed to male due to marketing pressure, and it would have had so, soo much more weight. And we know this sort of blatant discrimination happens often, so it won't even have been hard, yet instead we got a 'Damsels in distress greatest hits!' video.

When talking about what she wanted games to be, she had an image of Zelda dressed as Link and Peach dressed as Mario in the background. Is her idea of feminism really just putting the princess in pink overalls?

[Mephansteras]

Really, Mass Effect would have been a better poster child for Feminism. It may not be perfect, but Shepard is Shepard regardless of which gender you pick and a great example of actual equality. The only effect Gender has on the game is some of the romance options, your physical appearance, and what pronoun people use to refer to your character. That's it. And that's all it should be for the vast majority of games.

[Max White]

Do you mean to imply that the majority of games should have a 'Select gender' button?

[Mephansteras]

Do you mean to imply that the majority of games should have a 'Select gender' button?

Hmm. No, more that games need to focus more on female heroes being heroes than being Female, which is of course only part of the issue. The other part being that games should be able to have a female hero without it being treated as anything other than whatever that game is.

Say we had a Legend of Zelda style game with a female protagonist instead of a male protagonist. The gender of the hero should, for most purposes, but irrelevant. Part of the problem right now is that the very fact that the main character is female in a game tends to have an effect on the game far beyond the effect that having a male main character has.

I guess I'm implying that more games need to be made in such a way that if there was a 'Select gender' button it wouldn't really change the game too much.

Does that make sense?

[GlyphGryph]

It would have been possible for her to find a developer to tell a story about why their female protagonist got changed to male due to marketing pressure, and it would have had so, soo much more weight. And we know this sort of blatant discrimination happens often, so it won't even have been hard, yet instead we got a 'Damsels in distress greatest hits!' video.

Especially with the stories of this happening, you know, last week. It's actually a good point - ultimately, I think most of her everything she's put out are pretty... well, weak. Overall. The only reason it's really gotten so much attention is thanks to the Internet Hate Machine, which probably did more to reveal how much of an issue sexism still is among the gaming public than any video she posts (though I reserve the right to be pleasantly surprised by her future episode). I would love to have a lot more in-depth research into WHY these tropes are so prevalent, the pressures involved, but I'm not sure if that's really the sort of video series she set this up to be anyway.

[Max White]

Hmm. No, more that games need to focus more on female heroes being heroes than being Female, which is of course only part of the issue. The other part being that games should be able to have a female hero without it being treated as anything other than whatever that game is.

Say we had a Legend of Zelda style game with a female protagonist instead of a male protagonist. The gender of the hero should, for most purposes, but irrelevant. Part of the problem right now is that the very fact that the main character is female in a game tends to have an effect on the game far beyond the effect that having a male main character has.

I guess I'm implying that more games need to be made in such a way that if there was a 'Select gender' button it wouldn't really change the game too much.

Does that make sense?

That makes perfect sense and I agree.
To often the story with the female character is about 'Hey look, I'm a women, look at my development as a woman, my character is going through a typical female development arch!' rather than just being treated like a person.
There is nothing wrong with a female character developing as a female character. Some of the best stories ever told are some what gender specific and work much better with either a male or female, as historically we have treated the genders differently and we can draw meaning from that history, but that doesn't mean the female protagonist must follow these specific traits. You are allowed to have a character that is physically feminine but emotionally and mentally androgynous.

I think for the gaming industry to move forward we shouldn't be trying to describe stories we aren't allowed to tell, but instead focus on stories we are allowed to tell despite what the industry seems to think at the moment.

[GlyphGryph]

I would again like to reiterate how awesome the gender swapping options for the Donkey Kong and Legend of Zelda roms are, and how much younger girls especially seem to like them.

[Max White]

Cheers to you, BS The Legend of Zelda!