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[Max White]

. . . In the same way that mass murderers tie into video games, maybe.

Great, I need to go play No More Heros again now...

[penguinofhonor]

Here's another thing kindof related. It was on reddit a few days or so ago.
http://imgur.com/r/gaming/zwyRWCa

Related to the current derail, not the thread. We DO have a thread for that, though. (Kickstarters gone Wrong)

... when we do get that in the right thread, can someone put it in a format that's less rage-comicky? I can't really follow the image besides thinking that I guess I'm supposed to be making the same face as Ronald McDonald.

It's just a bunch of things copied and pasted next to each other. Perhaps an article with some original writing would be nice.

[NobodyPro]

I got the message there (I think) but it really doesn't belong in the thread.

[Zangi]

That rededit picture is better off in kickstarter gone wrong.

I think it also ties in to feminism and video games too, which is why I posted it.

/disagree


@Whole argument over definition of kickstarter 'scam' by the 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games' lady: 
Facepalm

[Mlamlah]

It's not a scam, she asked for a certain amount of money from her supporters.
Some of those people saw that she had passed her goal and yet they continued to give her money.

They *chose* to give her money she did not need for the project, of their own volition.
What proof is there that she's a con artist? (Here's a hint, this situation meets all of none of the criteria for being a con.) Give evidence she's shifty, or you're just the equivalent of a conspiracy theorist.

[Ogdibus]

.

[Max White]

So lets assume you managed to produce a game that was enjoyable, would you feel less inclined to release it publicly for fear of people attacking you for your gender?

[i2amroy]

To help get on topic I have a few points to say:
1)A trope is not sexist. A trope is simply a categorized tool in writing, and is not inherently sexist. It's use may be considered sexist, and it may be created by a sexist group, but that does not make the trope itself sexist. Also every trope has an inversion, and for every (warning: tvtropes) Damsel in Distress trope out there there is a Badass Damsel trope out there as well. Just the use of the damsel in distress trope is not enough to categorize something as "sexist", it is only when that trope is used in specific ways and with specific other tropes that the entire combination can be applied that label.

2)If you want to change something, then you should create information on how to enact the change, not information on how bad something is. Right now her videos appear to be a bunch of jumping up and down and screaming "this is horrible, I hate it and you should too" without providing any solutions. If she really wanted to solve this problem she should create a video series on how females can get into the gaming industry, or a series on plots with strong female characters, not one on how the industry is terrible (and thus potentially eliminating future female programmers). Even the right for women to vote wasn't won through a bunch of women grouping up and saying that it was horrible that women couldn't vote; it was won by a group of women saying that women deserve the right to vote and then doing something about it. As the old quote says, "Offer solutions, not problems".

3)Currently the "proven" video game making technique involves the use of what have been termed "sexist" tropes. Venture capitalists and successful video game enterprises are not fond of statements like "revolutionary" or "radical" other then as hooks for their new copies of old ideas. They are much more fond of statements such as "tried-and-true" or "proven to sell". Yelling about how horrible a situation is will not cause change, so until such time that somebody goes out there and creates a game that is successful due to the interest of female gamers, the majority of companies and those in power will not be willing to spend their money on it. Traditional methods will always win out over new ones until the new ones are proven to work as well, do to humanity's general "if it ain't broken don't fix it" methodology.

[NobodyPro]

So lets assume you managed to produce a game that was enjoyable, would you feel less inclined to release it publicly for fear of people attacking you for your gender?

Release it under a Team name? If it's non-commercial you could remain anonymous.

[GlyphGryph]

So lets assume you managed to produce a game that was enjoyable, would you feel less inclined to release it publicly for fear of people attacking you for your gender?

That is... a really odd question. A few problems with it I can see, but here's my take (not being a girl):
a) If a person was disinclined to release a game, they probably would have been disinclined to actually produce it to begin with. Building toys for yourself is a bit different - I know for my own projects, if I had concerns about releasing it publically I would probably move on to a different project. Which leads into...
b) Maybe you should ask if there are games she could develop that WOULD lead to her being concerned with people attacking her for her gender. Were I female, I would probably not be less inclined to release "generic platformer meatsack", because it's unlikely I'd draw much attention for my gender. But a game that is potentially controversial? That the "haters" might see as some sort of threat or slight? Let's just say I wouldn't envy a woman in that situation, or want to put myself in that situation.
c) There are a lot more fears than "attacks" that might influence this decision. I think being dismissed for my gender would potentially be even more devastating. Finally...
d) Indie game culture isn't really the primary creator or carrier of the tropes by analyzed, (though it certainly seems to make heavy use of them at times) so this all seems tangentially relevant at best?

I guess I'd still be interested in the answer though, with that stuff in mind.

[Ogdibus]

.

[Vector]

I personally find it frustrating that no matter how politely a woman expresses her opinion, she will inevitably be cited as "yelling" or "screaming" or "hysterical" if she has something unpopular to say and sticks by it.


I, personally, would be much more likely to join industry if I felt like I might get to work on a game where I wasn't actively working to destroy my own self-worth.  More likely to pursue game design on the side, too.

[Max White]

Release it under a Team name? If it's non-commercial you could remain anonymous.

That is... Not a very fair answer.
If I made a game, and I am, I'm going to release it under my real name, and I will. And I feel confident in being able to do this, as countless others have as well. I mean sure, devs like nick names, but we all know Toady is Tarn Adams, we know Notch is Markus Persson, and we all know that creepy guy in the corner with a dribble of blood in the corner of his mouth is Edmund McMillen.

The idea that a woman should be required to hide her identity to be taken seriously is sexist.

[alexandertnt]

snip

But pointing out the problems is the first and necessary step to work out a fix to the problems, is it not?

I personally find it frustrating that no matter how politely a woman expresses her opinion, she will inevitably be cited as "yelling" or "screaming" or "hysterical" if she has something unpopular to say and sticks by it.

Yeah. Claiming she thinks like "this is horrible, I hate it and you should too" (despite the fact that she enjoys many of the games she critisizes), and using emotive workds such as "yelling" and "screaming" to describe her critisizm is nothing but a strawman (strawwomen?).

[GlyphGryph]

To help get on topic I have a few points to say:
1)A trope is not sexist.

A trope can most certainly be sexist - the whole point of a trope is the cultural baggage it brings with it. The history, the environment. A trope being inherently sexist is a distinct possibility BECAUSE tropes are about how things have been used. Of course, just because a piece of media uses a sexist trope, that doesn't mean the piece of media itself is sexist - but it can certainly contribute to a sexist environment.

2)If you want to change something, then you should create information on how to enact the change, not information on how bad something is. Right now her videos appear to be a bunch of jumping up and down and screaming "this is horrible, I hate it and you should too" without providing any solutions.

Did you... actually watch her video? (Singular, for this series, at the moment - or at least I couldn't find a second one.) Because that wasn't the vibe I was getting from it at all. And dealing with any sort of complex problem is a multi-step process - it would be ludicrous to start providing solutions before the problem was properly analyzed, and the task she's set for herself with this videos is primarily that of analysis and education. We don't generally ask historians to stop crying about how wrong we were to get involved in such-and-such war, and that they should stop crying about it and figure out how to prevent the next one. Because... well. That's kind of missing the point of why the historian is doing anything they are doing.

If she really wanted to solve this problem she should create a video series on how females can get into the gaming industry, or a series on plots with strong female characters, not one on how the industry is terrible (and thus potentially eliminating future female programmers). Even the right for women to vote wasn't won through a bunch of women grouping up and saying that it was horrible that women couldn't vote; it was won by a group of women saying that women deserve the right to vote and then doing something about it. As the old quote says, "Offer solutions, not problems".

You cannot muster action in others without inspiring incentive to act.  You SHOULD not act without understanding that upon which you are acting.

Question: Did you, or did you not, actually watch the video in question before posting? Because seriously, nothing of the "problem" your pointing out in your post seems... accurate. At all. Maybe you should do a bit more in-depth analyses about what the problem actually is (and whether it actually even exists) before jumping right to solutions?