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[Hapah]

Toaster: I'm assuming the day doesn't end today? (4/17)

[zombie urist]

Day 3 will last until Wednesday, 4/17 at 11 PM EST.

Its still 4/16 where I live. 

[lordnincompoop]

I'd have finished this post sooner, but I received my books yesterday night and had to spend my time reading urgent coursework. As I've mentioned, busy busy.

Alright. I'm sifting through the first two days, and this is what I can see:

Imperial Guardsman's voting pattern has consisted of voting people that start to have votes piled on them and FOSing other people in similar situations. He skims from cases and takes those as arguments when asked. I really don't see what he has contributed to this game himself - it smells of "I can't be bothered to investigate myself" rather than "I'm new/a flaming idiot".

I can see where people voting him get their cases, but I don't think it's him. I'd be surprised, in fact, if it was - a scum player wouldn't play this way. There have been quiet scum, and it's a tactic that's been used several times (refer to scum Think in some Paranormal game), but usually when it's this blatant it's just a jackass town half-assing the game. You can see that in BMs, and that's where a lot of other noobs will pick it up and vote the lurker for lack of a better choice (or because of by-the-book play). I've only seen one case of this as scum before, and that was in KOTM with BDthemag, who was overall a terrible player.

Alamoes is very quiet. Sure, he has posted a bit, but little content. He's answered questions and posted commentary one-liners; his investigations are in the BM-RVS style that usually leads nowhere, and he claims to read the thread but shows little for it. He makes little comment on what he has found or what he's doing, and other than the RVS mentioned doesn't try to pursue a case. His D2 case on NQT is weak; while the one point he has is revealing, the town flip notwithstanding, he doesn't mention anything else. What happened to all that reading, Alamoes?


Since you all have been waiting long enough for a post from me, I'll leave this here for now and come back when I've done a thorough dig-through for all of you. Now that there are fewer players it shouldn't take as long.

Extend.

To expand on what I said above:

LS flipped mafia, so this looks like backing up a fellow mafia player. Also the bandwagon point is TERRIBLE.
The null part is incredibly lazy.
The slightly scummy part is kinda lazy too and he pretty much copied what I said about Ford. Note that what he said about Alamoes sounds like advice.
The scummy part is mostly BS and repeated arguments.

And he's being too cautious on the hammer thing.

ppe'd Okami

Frankly, Deathsword isn't all that great a player. I can't read my predecessor's mind, but I'll try my best to defend myself.

The first and last point is TERRIBLE. Why? Because not only was Leafsnail's Zrk2 lynch incredibly popular at the time that your quote was written, his case was one that was well received. Note what Okami (at least prior to that kill-announce), The Soldier, Vector, and Tiruin have done during D1. Your argument, had they been alive to be applied to, would just as easily do for them - and they've flipped town, so their behaviour is in earnest. Why not mine?

The bandwagon point is not related to the game, so I don't see how you can discredit his position by emphasising that.

"The null part is incredibly lazy" is not only inapplicable, it is blatant use of hyperbole. You know that. He gave you his reads - had he said "Oh, everyone is null right now" I'd have agreed, but there is nothing wrong with saying that you don't have a confirmed alignment for someone.

Now, your point about alamoes is, if I read that sentence correctly, as follows: He seems to be giving advice to alamoes. Now, that means he's probably scum, since scum would want to support his fellows and give advice to them. While this is good on surface inspection, what is wrong about this line of thought?

It's wrong because it's not grounded in reality. The reality is that scum have a scumchat. That means that they can communicate privately. More to the point, it means that this subtle advice-giving under the table or what have you is all unnecessary. The only alignments forced to do this would be those without private chats, and what are they? Town, or third-parties, the latter of which don't have a motive to work with others.

Unless, y'know, it was to help a noob. Players aren't solely mafia-motivated.

[Hapah]

PFP

Toaster: I'm assuming the day doesn't end today? (4/17)

Nevermind this, I went full derp.

[Toaster]

Mod note:  I'm not feeling well, and I may pass out tonight before deadline hits.  If so, I'll just extend the day 24 hours.

(or one more vote to extend and it'll extend anyway)

[Hapah]

PFP

Extendify.

[Toaster]

(Thanks)

Vote Count:

Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
lordnincompoop: zombie urist
Imperial Guardsman:
zombie urist: Okami No Rei

Not Voting:  Hapah, lordnincompoop, Imperial Guardsman


Day has been extended.  Day 3 will last until Thursday, 4/18 at 11 PM EST.

[Hapah]

np boss. Rest up.

[Hapah]

Imperial Guardsman's voting pattern has consisted of voting people that start to have votes piled on them and FOSing other people in similar situations. He skims from cases and takes those as arguments when asked. I really don't see what he has contributed to this game himself - it smells of "I can't be bothered to investigate myself" rather than "I'm new/a flaming idiot".

I'd say there's no reason it can't be both, but basically agree.
 

I can see where people voting him get their cases, but I don't think it's him. I'd be surprised, in fact, if it was - a scum player wouldn't play this way. There have been quiet scum, and it's a tactic that's been used several times (refer to scum Think in some Paranormal game), but usually when it's this blatant it's just a jackass town half-assing the game. You can see that in BMs, and that's where a lot of other noobs will pick it up and vote the lurker for lack of a better choice (or because of by-the-book play). I've only seen one case of this as scum before, and that was in KOTM with BDthemag, who was overall a terrible player.

I would like to point out that if it is IG, the scumteam at the start of D2 was alamoes/IG, and since this isn't a BM they wouldn't have a "scum IC" and thus would have no guidance. If they were rudderless like that you might expect to see a visible drop in the quality of their posts and their convictions or lines of thought, given the missing direction. While you can kinda see this will alamoes (check out his late D1 and all of his D2 posts for reference), I don't really see that sort of shift in IG.

-snip-
Note that what he said about Alamoes sounds like advice

It's wrong because it's not grounded in reality. The reality is that scum have a scumchat. That means that they can communicate privately. More to the point, it means that this subtle advice-giving under the table or what have you is all unnecessary. The only alignments forced to do this would be those without private chats, and what are they? Town, or third-parties, the latter of which don't have a motive to work with others.

The trouble with this is that if a mediocre player shows a sudden, marked improvement in their play, people can get suspicious. This goes double when there is no apparent source of advice prompting the change.

I imagine there's likely just one scum left, yeah? It's a pretty short list at this point.

IG: I am a patient man, but you can either show your face or you can get lynched. Do something, guy. You haven't even poked your head in since Saturday morning.

Okami: What are your current reads?

ZU: What do you mean by "the hammer thing" in your LNCP accusation post?

[zombie urist]

ZU: What do you mean by "the hammer thing" in your LNCP accusation post?

DS didn't want to vote Zrk2 unless he was sure there was no hammers. I think its because hammering a town is obviously suspicious.

I would like to point out that if it is IG, the scumteam at the start of D2 was alamoes/IG, and since this isn't a BM they wouldn't have a "scum IC" and thus would have no guidance. If they were rudderless like that you might expect to see a visible drop in the quality of their posts and their convictions or lines of thought, given the missing direction. While you can kinda see this will alamoes (check out his late D1 and all of his D2 posts for reference), I don't really see that sort of shift in IG.

So IG didn't show a drop after the good scum died so is he scum? Dunno what you're trying to say here.

Frankly, Deathsword isn't all that great a player. I can't read my predecessor's mind, but I'll try my best to defend myself.
The first and last point is TERRIBLE. Why? Because not only was Leafsnail's Zrk2 lynch incredibly popular at the time that your quote was written, his case was one that was well received. Note what Okami (at least prior to that kill-announce), The Soldier, Vector, and Tiruin have done during D1. Your argument, had they been alive to be applied to, would just as easily do for them - and they've flipped town, so their behaviour is in earnest. Why not mine?
The bandwagon point is not related to the game, so I don't see how you can discredit his position by emphasising that.
"The null part is incredibly lazy" is not only inapplicable, it is blatant use of hyperbole. You know that. He gave you his reads - had he said "Oh, everyone is null right now" I'd have agreed, but there is nothing wrong with saying that you don't have a confirmed alignment for someone.
Now, your point about alamoes is, if I read that sentence correctly, as follows: He seems to be giving advice to alamoes. Now, that means he's probably scum, since scum would want to support his fellows and give advice to them. While this is good on surface inspection, what is wrong about this line of thought?
It's wrong because it's not grounded in reality. The reality is that scum have a scumchat. That means that they can communicate privately. More to the point, it means that this subtle advice-giving under the table or what have you is all unnecessary. The only alignments forced to do this would be those without private chats, and what are they? Town, or third-parties, the latter of which don't have a motive to work with others.
Unless, y'know, it was to help a noob. Players aren't solely mafia-motivated.

Vector said she was "not sure". Okami didn't really believe LS and tried to trick him by purposefully acting scummy. Tiruin straight up disagreed and voted for LS. The Soldier was said LS seemed town, but he wasn't very sure about it.
LS purposefully tried to sabotage town by saying its ok to bandwagon. Basically only DS agreed. Letting people bandwagon is a VERY BAD idea.
Sorry but the feel of that part just feels more lazy than usual.
In actual reality, just because scumchat exists doesn't mean theres no communication in thread. I think that this was just a minor reminder. I also notice that DS was not afraid to attack newbies (as he did to Freshman).

[Hapah]

ZU: What do you mean by "the hammer thing" in your LNCP accusation post?

DS didn't want to vote Zrk2 unless he was sure there was no hammers. I think its because hammering a town is obviously suspicious.

And playing a game without knowing the rules is obviously stupid. I'd wanna know if there were hammers before I put down a potential hammervote too; people should be given the chance to explain themselves unless they are beyond a doubt guilty. Do you agree?

I would like to point out that if it is IG, the scumteam at the start of D2 was alamoes/IG, and since this isn't a BM they wouldn't have a "scum IC" and thus would have no guidance. If they were rudderless like that you might expect to see a visible drop in the quality of their posts and their convictions or lines of thought, given the missing direction. While you can kinda see this will alamoes (check out his late D1 and all of his D2 posts for reference), I don't really see that sort of shift in IG.

So IG didn't show a drop after the good scum died so is he scum? Dunno what you're trying to say here.

My apologies. I mean that if there is a 3-man scumteam of LS/Ala/IG, D2 would start with IG and alamoes. As they are both very new, and they had lost their ringleader, I would expect the quality of their posts to decrease without LS guiding them along. I saw this with alamoes (compare his late D1 and all his D2 post for yourself), but I didn't see it with IG.

[zombie urist]

Since IG's post quality didn't decrease are you saying that he's not scum?

[Hapah]

I'm saying I would have expected it to if he was.

[lordnincompoop]

I'm not liking the fact that I entered so close to day-end. I'm getting the feeling there won't be a Day 4 unless it ends now.

Extend.

Vector said she was "not sure". Okami didn't really believe LS and tried to trick him by purposefully acting scummy. Tiruin straight up disagreed and voted for LS. The Soldier was said LS seemed town, but he wasn't very sure about it.
LS purposefully tried to sabotage town by saying its ok to bandwagon. Basically only DS agreed. Letting people bandwagon is a VERY BAD idea.
Sorry but the feel of that part just feels more lazy than usual.
In actual reality, just because scumchat exists doesn't mean theres no communication in thread. I think that this was just a minor reminder. I also notice that DS was not afraid to attack newbies (as he did to Freshman).

Those opinions are from later on in D1, as people started to freak out about how popular the lynch was getting. At the time the DS post was written the lynch was still popular with the majority.

And I'd like to point out that the Day ended with The Soldier, and Tiruin both voting for Zrk2. Regardless of whatever ruminating happened, what they actually decided to do about it is more important.

I'd say there's no reason it can't be both, but basically agree.

Or both, sure. Point is, it's more a function of laziness than newness. Noobs generally want to improve their play, with all that entails.

I would like to point out that if it is IG, the scumteam at the start of D2 was alamoes/IG, and since this isn't a BM they wouldn't have a "scum IC" and thus would have no guidance. If they were rudderless like that you might expect to see a visible drop in the quality of their posts and their convictions or lines of thought, given the missing direction. While you can kinda see this will alamoes (check out his late D1 and all of his D2 posts for reference), I don't really see that sort of shift in IG.

You're forgetting Leafsnail. Now, I admit I'm unfamiliar with Toaster's setup, but I assume there's just one scumteam considering it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the OP and specific factions aren't mentioned either. That means, in your situation, it was alamoes/IG/Leafsnail, which I would definitely not label as "rudderless" - at least for D1.

Hapah, I don't like how you've voted IG so close to day end based on policy. This isn't D1, and pushing a lurker lynch when it is very likely lylo, or at the very least lylo-1, is very unwise. What's your case on IG, now that we are in D3? Have you made any thorough attempts on the others here? What makes you pick IG over the others, despite having already implied your town read of him and made a point toward that case?

This goes for you too, Okami. This isn't over yet. What are you doing?

[lordnincompoop]

And I want IG's input, since we're all discussing what he's saying.

I'm coming with a post on my reads in a few hours, since I'm spending this evening doing Mafia.