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Author Topic: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress  (Read 4543 times)

Helari

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Re: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2013, 08:07:47 am »

Sheer body size, and center of gravity, are other factors to consider. Having a bigger body means that, objectively, the body is easier to tilt off balance, because of the weight involved, but subjectively, the one with the big body means they have had a lot of practice balancing, and may actually be more coordinated.

That is wrong, an object with a larger mass is harder to move making large creatures harder to topple, their center of gravity will also be further away from the tipping point requiring more tilting before the creature tips over.

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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2013, 09:19:13 am »

NW_Kohaku: It would be nice if the game tracked procioception: From Wikipedia: The sense of the relative position of neighbouring parts of the body and strength of effort being employed in movement.

Basically, it's a measure of your ability to be self-aware of exactly what your body is doing, exactly what position each part of it is in, how tense and how relaxed all the different muscles of your body are, exactly how much force you're applying, moment by moment, and how those factors relate to your balance, center of gravity, and then in direct relation to your surroundings, and potential combatants.

Isn't that exactly what Kinesthetic Sense is?  Except for the "where everyone else is" part, which is Spacial Sense.

Of course, I think that Spacial Sense is grossly overused in this game, since it blurs the concept of "where everyone is around me" with the concepts of Spacial Logic, which is more used in abstractly understanding complex 3-d constructs mentally, and being capable of intuitively understanding the repercussions of physics (such as being able to guess the arc of an arrow fired from a bow at a certain angle at a certain pull).  Currently, Spacial Sense is used for everything because the game considers "how far can my hammer reach" to be a matter of spacial sense in the same way that "how many support arches will this bridge need to avoid collapsing" is.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2013, 06:32:08 pm »

Kinesthetic sense includes depth perception, as well, I believe. I should have included that too, really, but the idea is that they be two separately tracked skills--depth perception is important when using a sword or a spear, by the way, not just when aiming a ranged weapon (which might have been why Odin needed a magic spear that never missed it's target--his own targeting had been compromised).

So, you could have depth perception, as a skill, with 2 eyed characters; plain sight, as an ability, which cyclopes would still have;
and proprioception (sorry, see above post), which everyone would have, but that might be trained extensively, as a skill, when "blind-fighting".

Actually, the more I read about it (it was really late last night, when I stumbled upon the concept), proprioception wouldn't necessarily include the awareness of others around you, so it may not be what the game would use to track whether someone's sneaking up behind you, or how well you would respond to being flanked.

That would be situational awareness, which is also important, as it tracks both others/objects entering your personal space (and how fast), and other environmental elements, with respect to both time, and space.

Situational awareness would be the mental skill which would go hand-in-hand with the physical skill of dodging, and it would also be the skill used for shooting at a moving target, and the "trainable skill" part of a being's reflexes and reaction-time.

You could even add body awareness, as a skill that measure how aware a dwarf is of their overall sensitivity to their own health and condition (as opposed to the diagnostician skill), which might seem like an obvious thing, but considering the suicidal nature of dwarfs, the appearance in the game of beings that go berserk, as well as the presence of syndromes and poisons, it might be a very useful skill, that would govern at what point a dwarf begins to realize they are in danger, and to make the judgement that it's time to take steps to put themselves out of danger.

This would directly work against the emotion of fear, although that may sound at first counter-intuitive, because it would allow the dwarf, etc. to make rational assessments, rather than just react on a primitive level, to fear stimuli.

This would lead to pain tolerance, as an inherent ability, and pain conditioning--training to increase a being's ability to endure pain, and in particular, to continue making rational, logical decisions, while under duress--as a skill.

Drifting further from the topic: Fear could be a measured condition as well, and really should be, I think. Courage could be the inherent ability to resist fear, with bravery as the skill to increase that resistance, and discipline being a skill that, in part, increases resistance to fear, while in a disciplined squad.

To take it back to the topic: discipline could also measure the "balance" of a group, while in formation, and the ability to remain in an effective formation. It could also measure a being's ability to stay on guard, while tired, and not be distracted by pain, worry, or other factors (and even the ability to awaken quickly and alertly, when there's a danger).

Also, fighting a group does use different techniques than fighting an individual. I'm not just quoting 'Princess Bride', either, I've been jumped a few times in my misspent youth, by both individuals, and by up to 7 people at a time, and you do have to fight differently, and react differently.

It's a different skill, and one that dwarfs would need, since they're short enough to already be at a disadvantage in group-fighting, and they have low numbers, so fighting groups is just something that would naturally happen.

A group, unless trained to fight together, reacts more slowly, with less balance (they get in each other's way, which, in addition to my own training, saved me), so there should additionally be a tracker for squads, and how used they are to fighting together.

That would leave us with:

Depth perception:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Proprioception:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Situational Awareness:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Body Awareness:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Group Fighting:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

and Tactics:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Along with:
Balance,
Concentration,
Stress,
and Discipline.

Possibly also:
Center of gravity,
Reflexes,
Fear,
Courage
and Sight (Visual Acuity? I think it would be truly awesome if DF actually tracked whether our dwarfs possessed 20/20 vision.), as abilities and conditions that these skills work upon.


NW_Kohaku: I'm not certain I understand the problem with the bridges, other than support arches not possessing brains, complex or otherwise. 

I'm guessing it has to do with the idea that different bridges designed to span different gulfs would require different means of support, but that's just a guess.


Helarl: It's harder to get a big body to start moving, that's absolutely true, and a good point, but once you do, it's also harder to get it to stop moving, as well, and harder for a big body to recover.
Better balance equaling slower movement and less ability to react is another good point, too.

Hammers, war picks, and spiked maces and flails were great for foiling plate, even axes could do a good job, but they weren't as versatile as a sword, and not as good in single combat, or for parrying.

It's interesting (to me, anyway) how different swords (and arguably maces, see below) really were, in terms of culture and origin, than almost any other weapon.

There were almost never any straight swords that were real tools (The flensing knife, and the hunting sword are the only exceptions I can think of, both designed for killing/butchering, and you could maybe make an argument for the pool-cue--I don't count machetes and the like, because they really grew out of the desire for a tool that combined the versatility of a knife, with the power of an axe--There could have never been a single battle, ever, and a pacifistic culture might still have invented the machete in roughly the same amount of time), and almost every other weapon grew out of a tool, from poignards to flails to pole-arms.

I think swords grew from sickles, although my dad thinks they were always weapons, and grew out of clubs, which is quite reasonable. I just disagree.

Maces are another exception, but they were culturally more of a symbol of power (atleast after the Egyptians got their hands on swords), than a pure symbol of war. Kings wear crowns, and hold spheres (representing the world) and scepters (representing their power over it), which are just fancy maces. If my dad's right, then maces would be even more of a weapon (as opposed to a tool), than even the sword.

Anyway...finally...my point is...

There were a class of big swords (generally bastard sword-sized), specifically designed to pierce plate. An example would be the French espadon. These were big enough to be used with one hand or both, as bashing weapons, but were fairly thin, unsharpened atleast near the hilt, so you could grab the blade  itself and press on it, attaining greater leverage in close combat thrusting/impaling, and had needle points.

« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 08:12:53 pm by SirHoneyBadger »
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Helari

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Re: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress
« Reply #33 on: February 27, 2013, 05:13:23 am »

Helarl: It's harder to get a big body to start moving, that's absolutely true, and a good point, but once you do, it's also harder to get it to stop moving, as well, and harder for a big body to recover.
Better balance equaling slower movement and less ability to react is another good point, too.

A very low stance does not really impede reaction, only movement and probably dodging in df terms. Also if bigger creatures strength and coordination is relative to it's size, balancing wont be any harder than for a small and light creature.

Also

Quote
Some swords could cut through plate armor.

    False. Although maile armor ("chain mail") was not foolproof against strong sword cuts, a fighter in full plate armor was however effectively immune to the edged blows of swords. There are no real-life accounts of edge blows effectively cutting through an armored harness; that is one reason why plate armor was so popular and so much effort put into perfecting it. Though swords were not capable of cutting through plate armor, a fighter would not avoid striking edge blows against an armored opponent if it might bruise or stun him, knock him about, tear into or crack open his helmet or visor, slice through straps and tear off pieces, or otherwise weaken his defense against a more effective technique such as a thrust. While sword cuts that would have been debilitating or lethal on bare flesh might have no effect against soft or hard types of armor, if delivered with great force they could sometimes traumatized the tissue and bone beneath and thereby incapacitate a target. Although, to be accurate, not all armor was of equal quality and some type of helms could indeed be partially split by edge blows from swords. While there are many images from Medieval sources of swords cutting into armor or through helmets, nothing in the historical accounts of actual armored combat or the voluminous instructional texts on armored fighting supports this as being common. Modern experiments, when performed under realistic conditions with historically accurate weapons using proper technique against historically accurate reproduction armor, have yet to convincingly duplicate what is depicted in such images. An armored fighter was still vulnerable to sharply-pointed tapering swords and other weapons employed in thrusting as well as to crushing from specialized anti-armor weapons. Yet even thrusts against plate armor were difficult to succeed with because it was intentionally designed to deflect and resist them, thus gaps and joints were typically targeted. Yet descriptions of fights with specialized weapons designed for fighting plate armor, such as pole-axes and maces, reveal even they were able to pierce through armor only infrequently. More often they were effective in simply denting and cracking armor to stun and bruise the wearer into a vulnerable condition. But, given strong effort and a hit to the right spot, a rigid point stabbing strongly could puncture armor even if its cutting edge would not.  ("Medieval Armor: Plated Perfection" in Military History, July 2005). 

Even with an very pointy sword you will not be able to go around piercing all of the knights.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress
« Reply #34 on: February 27, 2013, 10:44:58 am »


Actually a low and wide stance with good balance slows you down, you can spring into movement faster with a less steadfast stance but you might be toppled easier by sweeps or whatever.



I was agreeing with you about the ability of a creature in balance to "spring into movement", Helarl ("springing into movement" would seem to mean "acting and reacting") and I'm not saying you're wrong about the bigger creatures, but I'd like to see some real evidence of that, because mass and momentum seem like they would be factors, as would the overall design of a being's body structure.

Strength and coordination may not be relative.

Pound-for-pound, smaller creatures are often much stronger, more agile, and more coordinated than large creatures, because it seems they have to be, in order to survive.

If an elephant weighed the same as a house cat, it would be considerably less strong, agile, or coordinated than the cat, because a lot of it's bodily structure needs to be dedicated to just supporting it's great mass, and that great mass causes great stress on it's body, every time the elephant moves. To compensate, it has less bones (at 140, compared to the housecat's 230), meaning less moving parts, and less places for muscles to attach to, and to work against.


Even with an very pointy sword you will not be able to go around piercing all of the knights.


I'm not sure why not? You'd only try to pierce through the plate itself as an absolute last resort, ofcourse. You'd damage the armour, if possible, and either find or make a weak spot, then shove the point in.

Your own quote supports that, so I don't know why you're arguing against it?

It's not always going to be easy, which is why plate was popular in the first place, despite costing as much as house, but every suit of armour still has those mentioned gaps and joints. The article just says that thrusts through the armour itself don't always work, not against the weak spots it goes on to mention, which is exactly what such swords were designed to access.

These also weren't enormous swords, either. They were long, but didn't need to be massive, just very strong, which takes high quality steel. Including the handle, they were maybe 4-5 feet long, and included a particularly long grip, a wide, very sturdy metal crossguard (for hooking your opponent or hammering their helmet), and a thick but narrow, not very sharp if sharpened at all (sharpness weakened the sword, would mean nothing against plate, and razor sharpness would just cut your hand when you grabbed the blade--grabbing the blade was referred to as "half-swording", by the way), blade that came to a nasty point, which would be sharpened, the last few inches only.   

Ofcourse, knocking the other guy off his feet would work against even the finest dwarfen plate. Then you'd just need to step on him, keep him down, and ask leading questions about how much he might be worth for ransom.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2013, 06:41:16 pm »

Ofcourse, knocking the other guy off his feet would work against even the finest dwarfen plate. Then you'd just need to step on him, keep him down, and ask leading questions about how much he might be worth for ransom.

Actually, I do hope that tackling and pinning an opponent becomes an acceptable tactic at some point.  If nothing else, bum-rushing opponents with your civilian population to hold the enemy down while the military dwarves drop the hammer on the helmets of the restrained opponents could become actually viable, even if it is still a last resort. 

And ultimately, I do hope that part of the entire notion of balance becomes that, aside from things like dragons biting people in half, high-quality steel plate on a well-trained dwarf actually does make you nearly invulnerable until either:

(A) You become tired. Combat in full plate is tiring, even if it is well-distributed weight - it's 40 lbs of gear while performing strenuous anaerobic athletics, and few people last more than 10 minutes.  Part of what made the Romans so effective was that they developed a system of relieving their front-line soldiers by swapping out ranks of soldiers every 5 minutes of combat to give their front line a breather.  All other armies even back into ancient times had nobles paired up with trusted men-at-arms specifically to be bodyguards that hung back and then relieved them and let them recover after getting tired.

(B) You are knocked down.  When down, you can be pinned, and your armor stripped, if nothing else, so that your armor is no longer totally effective.

To make this happen, I really do hope that we stop having things like 100% body coverage equipment, and go to a system where we have like 80% coverage on plate, but the gaps aren't exploitable when the soldier is standing and dodging, as it's much easier to shift your weight and make a blow land on your armored shoulder rather than your unarmored pit than it is to leap completely aside the blow, and that's what many knights actually did.
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Neonivek

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Re: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2013, 06:50:23 pm »

Quote
You become tired. Combat in full plate is tiring, even if it is well-distributed weight -

This is my response to the myth: It is lighter then you thing but more significant then it would seem.

As anyone who strapped 5 pound weights to their hands would find.

Quote
I really do hope that we stop having things like 100% body coverage equipment

No that is fine, Knights had near 100% coverage. They just had "gaps" where their armor wasn't as strong.

---

At the same time however given this is an epic game the effect of armor diminishes to nonexistance as the opponent gets to legendary status.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2013, 06:55:54 pm »

Quote
You become tired. Combat in full plate is tiring, even if it is well-distributed weight -

This is my response to the myth: It is lighter then you thing but more significant then it would seem.

As anyone who strapped 5 pound weights to their hands would find.

Quote
I really do hope that we stop having things like 100% body coverage equipment

No that is fine, Knights had near 100% coverage. They just had "gaps" where their armor wasn't as strong.

---

At the same time however given this is an epic game the effect of armor diminishes to nonexistance as the opponent gets to legendary status.

Yeah, near 100% coverage, but not 100% coverage.  That's my point.  It can also lead to "advancements" of armor, where you start with armor with 70% coverage, then can upgrade to extremely fine plate mail that has 95% coverage, but that last 5% is always vulnerable, although it's very easy to protect just 5% of your body unless you're rendered immobile. 

And yes, part of the point is also that combat in general is tiring, whether you have full plate or not (even a boxer gets very tired, and they're wearing as close to nothing as possible), but adding 40 lbs of gear makes that getting tired worse. (And for the record, modern soldiers still carry 40 lbs of gear, and aren't nearly as fully covered in armor.)
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Neonivek

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Re: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2013, 06:58:09 pm »

Quote
but that last 5% is always vulnerable

You want to know what my 5% was? The Eye holes and the air holes. That was it. You have 100% coverage otherwise.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2013, 09:49:03 pm »

Quote
but that last 5% is always vulnerable

You want to know what my 5% was? The Eye holes and the air holes. That was it. You have 100% coverage otherwise.

No, the armpits were unarmored by the plate (not the mail, but the plate didn't armor it), the inner thighs (mail was like a skirt for that, anyway, so you could stab up under the skirt,) and anywhere that armor or its buckles have been damaged or stripped off.   

And besides, calling for those eyeholes to be unarmored is still a change, and making it so that it's hard to stab through the eye holes if the target is still moving, but something you can make an aimed shot at when knocked unconscious is something that would be an improvement.

Against an unconscious knight, you could stab up the "skirt" of the mail towards the stomach or back, into the less-armored armpits or thighs (which have nice arteries to pierce) or just kick their helmet off, and go for the face.
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WillowLuman

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Re: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2013, 02:54:47 am »

Unlike medeival knights, modern soldier's gear is mostly heavy loads on a few places, rather than distributed throughout their bodies. I've worked for many years with people who wear full plate. They jog laps in the stuff, and always tell me the main problem it getting overheated in the arming jacket (southern california is not kind to any kind of medieval European apparel). With an icepack behind the kidneys, though, they can do a mile or two just fine. It's actually less tiring than wearing a great big mail hauberk that just hangs off your torso.

Keep anyone fighting long enough, though, and odds are the one wearing most layers will get exhausted first. Once down, stick a stiletto right through the eye or armpit. You're not lethally wounding anyone in the thigh. If they're stone-cold unconscious, you could even just remove parts of their armor. The armored person will usually win long before they get tired, as they are practically equal with the unarmored person in mobility but far superior in protection.

Strangely, helms in current DF somehow completely cover the entire head except extremities. It's as if people are wearing some kind of steel luchador mask or balaclava with ear holes.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2013, 03:42:33 pm »

I've been thinking about armour coverage, and I'd like some feedback, if anyone would be so kind:

Ideally, I'd like armour/clothing to consist of a series of up to 7 total layers. Yes, I know that's a lot, but hear me out.

The layers would consist of the following:
Undergarments--These would cover the chest, shoulders, armpits, belly, and thighs, so maybe 60%

Padding (soft leather, or tough woven cloth, possibly silk)--Everything but the head and neck, so 90%

Stiff, boiled leather backing--Shoulders, upper torso, belly, thighs, but less so than undergarments, so 50%. This could also consist of boiled leather combined with many layers of silk, for more comfortable, but much more expensive, armour. 

Leather armour would basically stop on this layer.

maille--This would consist of shoulders, armpits, front and back neck, top and back of head, chest, thighs, calves.  75%

Maille armour would basically stop here, but there would be the possibility of heavier double-maille.

Things like studded leather, scale armour, etc. would also stop here, but have different coverage and qualities.

Plate pieces--These could be made to cover everything but the eyes, the neck, the inside elbows, the backs of the knees, and the armpits, so up to 90%, but there should be many individual pieces that all have to be forged separately, and tailored to fit, and it should be rare to have a complete set of plate, because of the high skill of the armourer, the necessary tailoring and fitting, and the hideous expense (equivalent to buying a nice mid-price house today, at minimum).

Plate Adornments--These are attachments and accessories to the plate pieces, and would consist of things like rondels (circular plate pieces covering areas like the heart, elbows, etc.), besajews (special shaped rondels covering the armpits), and poleyns (additional plate protection for the knees). Some helmets may also have an additional plate layer. These would cover no more than 20%. Additionally, jousting armour could have several pieces designed to ablate off upon being hit, and these would also be located on the adornment layer. 

Outer garments--These would be things like tabards, to show the wearer's allegiance, cloaks, fur coats, and woven cloth greatcoats, for greater arrow protection, and protection from the elements, in extreme cold.

These layers would allow the realistic creation of just about any possible historical armour. The eyes would always be completely vulnerable, however, and the neck, armpits, the inside elbows, and the backs of the knees would always be weak points.

Armour should also really be species-specific (as should clothing!), atleast because of tailoring problems and cultural differences, but ofcourse, a horse, an ogre, and a dragon all have vastly different body shapes.
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SuicideJunkie

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Re: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2013, 12:32:44 pm »

Pound-for-pound, smaller creatures are often much stronger, more agile, and more coordinated than large creatures, because it seems they have to be, in order to survive.
That's more a function of the square-cube rule.  Physics goes easier on the small guys, so they take advantage of it.

Things don't just become stronger because they need to be after all :)  They become stronger because it is possible and also advantageous to do so.
If they need to be stronger, but it isn't possible, or isn't an advantage due to the tradeoffs... then they die out.
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WillowLuman

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Re: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2013, 12:33:34 am »

Armor already is species specific, based on body size. Dwarves, elves, and gobbos can all wear the same stuff, because they're all [SIZE:60000], but then again they're all humanoid as well. For soft objects, creatures of the same shape really ought to be able to wear garments in larger size, and for shapeless things like capes anyone should be able to wear to some degree (I'd imagine a giant wears a human cape like an ascot :D)

In the game as is, though, there are very few creatures of different bodyplan that are close enough to the same size to wear the same stuff. I don't think it takes individual size variation into account.
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sobriquet

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Re: Balance and Concetration as a displayable metric, and Stress
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2013, 07:21:28 pm »

relating to the concept of balance in combat, I'm all for it-- it's worth noting this has been successfully implemented in the text-based MMORPG dragonrealms (play.net)



As of the writing of this post, Toady is currently working on a system of splitting actions off from movement, and as part of that, is including the capacity to do more than one thing in a given turn, including the likes of having hydra heads that all attack independently. 


Because of that, he included talk of how players can order multiple actions to take place at once, but with penalties to their behavior.

The point of this system is to better formalize this system in a manner that helps the player understand the penalties, as well as makes it a mechanic that can be used to make combat as a whole more interesting by making attacks that drop an enemy's guard more possible than currently implemented.



Spoiler: Balance (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Concentration (click to show/hide)

Either one of these serve as short-term resources the player can spend - powerful attacks are unbalancing, for example, and if an enemy is unbalanced, you can shove them or strike to push them further off-balance or even prone.  An unbalanced character defends themselves less well, and moves slower and more clumsily. Hence, you have to weigh the gains you can make with a powerful attack against the risks of being left exposed to counter-strike.

This also helps model a more dynamic combat than what we currently have.

By letting players actually see some indication of how balanced or imbalanced they are, it helps players understand the mechanics of combat, and can bring melee combat more towards a level like that seen in games like how Mount and Blade handles dueling. 

Spoiler: Mechanics (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Opportunity attacks (click to show/hide)



Spoiler: Stress (click to show/hide)
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