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[scrdest]

Im not a huge fan of there being more RNG added to the game as it then turns into a repetitive time sink to figure out what does what over and over again.

It's not RNG. RNG would be rolling probability every time you mix any chem to see if RNGesus allows it to be made. Those chems would be stuff you don't need given to chemists as a reward for experimentation, like mixing up their Dylovene substrates with orange soda, and not being a Bartender with delusions of being a scientist.

[My Name is Immaterial]

The trickier way is randomizing high-end recipes, and even trickier is making that persistent for, say, a week. The former is definitely doable, there's even some abandoned BS12 code for that, the latter I think is doable using the database.

That would, in theory, be interesting, but the problem is that there are so many things you can use that either the secret list has to be so large that there is a high rate of discovery, so that chemists don't get bored, frustrated, or angry, or some sort of in game indicator that you're working with the right set. It could take the form of half-finished research notes, an illicit recipe book under the floor boards, a book in the library, or on notes hidden throughout the different departments.

[scrdest]

The trickier way is randomizing high-end recipes, and even trickier is making that persistent for, say, a week. The former is definitely doable, there's even some abandoned BS12 code for that, the latter I think is doable using the database.

That would, in theory, be interesting, but the problem is that there are so many things you can use that either the secret list has to be so large that there is a high rate of discovery, so that chemists don't get bored, frustrated, or angry, or some sort of in game indicator that you're working with the right set. It could take the form of half-finished research notes, an illicit recipe book under the floor boards, a book in the library, or on notes hidden throughout the different departments.

You're not entitled to whatever the randomized recipe makes; it's random fun stuff on top of regular chem balance with random fun effects, for chemists who want to stray from the regular read wiki -> make chems process and just mix random shit for giggles.

If you just have to do a scavenger hunt for the recipe, that's just a very tedious unlock, whereas what makes secret chems interesting is 'wait, what if I add THIS?' - and especially, straying from the standard chem dispenser/derived set of chems.

The major problem I can envision with random recipes is a conflict of recipes, which is addressed by the largely unused kinetics support (so worst case scenario, you get a mix of two chems with overlapping recipes, depending on the rates) and Goonchem temperature-based reaction requirements, and container mixes, e.g. some preset fruit/pill/other reagent container's mix of reagents happens to have the same things in it as the recipe is rolled that round and that normally innocent mix turns into something that spawns a singlo or something, which could be fixed by a static requirement, either something like Phoron as catalyst or a specific temperature range.

[My Name is Immaterial]

What makes secret chems interesting is 'wait, what if I add THIS?' - and especially, straying from the standard chem dispenser/derived set of chems.

The thing about mixing random stuff together is that I feel that it will lead to grinding. There are what, a dozen? twenty? different basic chemicals? Then you can conceivably throw another dozen more outlandish components in. That gives you at least 144 possible solutions to try, and a worst case scenario of 400+, not counting temperature. Unless there are lots of random results, I don't see this being fun. If only 1 in 20 reactions produce something interesting, then I don't see how that's actually any fun. I'd it's something like 1 in 10, I could get behind that.
The idea behind having a 'scavenger hunt' was to help reduce the grinding. It would give people a place to start looking: "Hmm, these notes say that banana juice reacted strangely with something. I can't make it out; the text is garbeled. Better load up on bananas."

[miauw62]

there is no middle ground between "looking stuff up from the wiki" and "marking off every possible combination on a spreadsheet", at least not with the systems ss13 has available. chems just exist, there is no rhyme or reason to their recipes or effects, so the optimal way to discover secret chemicals is grinding. secret chems would have to be powerful to be worth it. congratulations, you are actively encouraging players to do unfun things.

[Liction]

Part of how secret chems worked was also that goon admins enforced rules about players not being able to say how to make some of the chems so we would either have do adopt similar rules and not be able to tell players when they ahelp how to make x or randomize it so that it is diffrent from time to time, both solutions I have big problems with.

[Rolan7]

there is no middle ground between "looking stuff up from the wiki" and "marking off every possible combination on a spreadsheet", at least not with the systems ss13 has available.

Yeah...  I have been playing Big Pharma recently, which shows that it's possible to make chemistry interesting.  But it'd require a more complex system.  I mean, didn't Goon chem involve temperature (much like concentration)?  It could be interesting.
Of course people would just figure out optimal recipes, which is why you might mix it up every few days.  Or...

chems just exist, there is no rhyme or reason to their recipes or effects, so the optimal way to discover secret chemicals is grinding. secret chems would have to be powerful to be worth it. congratulations, you are actively encouraging players to do unfun things.

I have played on Goon like once for a couple minutes, but...  I'm not sure that the existence of secrets is that bad.  Particularly ones that can be independently discovered in a few rounds of dedicated study.  This is a social game, after all.  It's not like new players can even figure out the interface without asking other players for help, because it's complete shit and has been for years.  Partially because of the reward that comes from figuring out (or being told) that you can drag your PDA to open it from your belt.

[My Name is Immaterial]

Partially because of the reward that comes from figuring out (or being told) that you can drag your PDA to open it from your belt.

WHAT

[Aseaheru]

 The lack of knowledge about that is sorta like not knowing that theres a pen inside everyones PDA... Or what the EFTPOS does.

 That being, amazingly scarce.

 For the record, the EFTPOS allows money to be transferred from a scanned ID card to a specific account that is then locked into the device, which is what the access code is there for. This makes it useful for selling, say, food as a chef or drinks as a bartended

[Rolan7]

Amazingly scarce for anyone who's had it explained to them or has exhaustively investigated an incredibly unintuitive interface...

Or who gets a kick from reading random Byond source like me

[miauw62]

there is no middle ground between "looking stuff up from the wiki" and "marking off every possible combination on a spreadsheet", at least not with the systems ss13 has available.

Yeah...  I have been playing Big Pharma recently, which shows that it's possible to make chemistry interesting.  But it'd require a more complex system.  I mean, didn't Goon chem involve temperature (much like concentration)?  It could be interesting.
Of course people would just figure out optimal recipes, which is why you might mix it up every few days.  Or...

tg has temperature. it's not the fix you're looking for. as long as there is no relationship between reagents and end result, chemistry is going to suck.

chems just exist, there is no rhyme or reason to their recipes or effects, so the optimal way to discover secret chemicals is grinding. secret chems would have to be powerful to be worth it. congratulations, you are actively encouraging players to do unfun things.

I have played on Goon like once for a couple minutes, but...  I'm not sure that the existence of secrets is that bad.  Particularly ones that can be independently discovered in a few rounds of dedicated study.  This is a social game, after all.  It's not like new players can even figure out the interface without asking other players for help, because it's complete shit and has been for years.  Partially because of the reward that comes from figuring out (or being told) that you can drag your PDA to open it from your belt.

the interface being awful to figure out is a flaw, not a feature nor an excuse to obfuscate information.

if i needed to grind (that's what dedicated study means, grind) a checklist of chemicals for three whole rounds before i get to do anything fun, i think id rather not play chemistry at all.

unless you have a solid idea on what you want chemistry to look like and the dedication to make it happen, secret chemicals are just going to be unfun. you need a system which makes random recipes each round, and these recipes need to be logically deductible. thats just not possible with the current system. youd need some very modular system where every ingredient has a specific function which is randomised every round and use that to determine what an end product would look like. Such a system runs into issues of its own because it's fairly easy to make optimal chems.

i am sceptical that secret chemicals could ever be fun, because i just dislike meta-knowledge which isnt publicly available. tg has a few of these things in relation to brewing bombs or some obscure atmos tricks, but people are usually even willing to share those because we cultivate a community where people want to share their tricks.

this is like the second biggest misconception about design in this game imo, the biggest being what constitutes paranoia.

[Cheedows]

Kydrasz did a pretty good captainhitler rev round, although it ended up in a clusterfuck regardless. Brings back memories of Gllerd's special events that he'll hopefully be hosting this Sunday.

[Gale212]

I think the server just crashed.

[Kydrasz]

Yeah, that round was pretty awful. Sorry about that, my old antag habits kicked in and I stalked maintenance until I found the perfect moment to pounce.

Then connection closed. 

[Gale212]

I need to learn how to properly confront a trespasser, like: keep something solid between myself and them, or dont stand in a doorway.