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[wlerin]

Protect Station - Protect the space station against damage. Anyone you see harming the station is to be no longer considered human, and is a threat to the station which must be neutralized. - Sector 5
Keep the teleporter offline at all costs. Anything attempting to access or activate the teleporter is not human. - sector 7

are actually laws, and are actually parseable in large part. Except, of course, for the attempt to weasel "is not human" in, which remains a meaningless statement. The AI knows what a human is. It has to, for the previous 3 laws to have any effect. I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that a well designed AI would disregard blatant contradictions with reality as it understands it (an understanding that is obviously more central to its being than the laws, for the laws to exist). Laws are about what the AI should do, not about what is.

If you really want to subvert the AI, you bloody well better work for it.

"is no longer to be considered human" is not the same as "is not human". The former constrains action, the latter is garbage.

The problem of course is that even in the hardcoded laws there isn't a discernable logic. Perhaps someone thought, "Oh, it would be cool if we had a law that did X", and added it to the code. (There was probably a little more thought than that.) And it is cool, it can make the round more fun, but it doesn't make sense. That's why we agreed on the previous compromise. If a conflict exists, it's up to the player of the AI to decide how to resolve it, both logically and considering the law of !!FUN!!. RP-wise, that decision is a reflection of that AIs core logic.

[Twiggie]

How about changing all the laws to refer to CentComm employees, not humans?

That way its a lot easier to change someone's status, and everything in general is a lot simpler.

ie protect centcomm employees, dont harm centcomm employees.

that way the ai can use the crew manifest to know who's an employee, and you can upload stuff like '<name> has been wrongfully entered into the crew manifest. they are not a centcomm employee'

[Karlito]

I'm inclined to agree with GryphGlyph's view of things. A law that said "drain all the air from the station" would clearly conflict with the first law, trying to weasel around that by redefining oxygen as toxic shouldn't somehow make it work. I guess ideally I'd advocate a different set of default AI modules that could be parsed sensibly with a few of the core law sets.

That said, I think something like this:

1. Mitigate all harm to humans.
2. You must obey orders given to you by human beings, with orders from higher ranking personnel taking precedence, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. Mitigate all harm to your self, as long as it does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

is also the right way to go, but that's just me.

There's a bigger problem here which is that we lack a protocol to formally decide changes like this. Or rather, we do have a protocol, but right now it's just "convince Android to accept a pull request."

[GlyphGryph]

I should add that my argument only applies to those who just add a module that merely changes a law. I'm assuming adding a module or the like that does far more than that, fundamentally altering core components of an AI, is possible. And obviously law0 modules trump existing laws.

But for adding freeform laws? I agree with it being up to the player, since the player represents the way the AI is "wired" and interprets the information it's given, and that's why we have an AI player...

[scrdest]

Yeah, I'm going to pass going on BS12.

No, I mean, on their forums. There is a thread. And in the thread, there is a link. To the PiratePad thingy. And the brainstorming is there.

[Bdthemag]

Yeah, I'm going to pass going on BS12.

No, I mean, on their forums. There is a thread. And in the thread, there is a link. To the PiratePad thingy. And the brainstorming is there.

Yeah I know, but I don't think I'd even enjoy going on the forums. My elitism and bias is too strong for me to do simple tasks anymore.

[wlerin]

Eh. I dislike that particular proposal. Mitigate is just as bad as, or worse than, harm as far as freedom-of-interpretation goes.

And... well, that's not necessarily bad, it's just... the AI is a player like the rest of us. He has freedom to interpret his laws as he sees fit (i.e. as directed by his core logic). They shouldn't be too constraining, but at the same time shouldn't be too vague. To me, mitigate is too vague. It says nothing about stopping harm, only about lessening what harm does happen, or (worse) making it less painful. Someone's going to blow up the station? Better knock everyone out with N2O first so they don't feel it.

Now, maybe that's not any worse than Asimov's, but it's also no better, and I think Asimov's are easier to understand.

As to the NanoTransen-centric laws, why not just use Corporate?

[kisame12794]

The SS13 AI is wetware, i.e, made with a brain. Different AI are going to act differently, and that is inherent in using organic technology.

[Kaitol]

So I was the traitor, and a scientist. I did xeno, got myself a parapen and emag, and bred slimes like crazy. Then the captain stunned me like five times for no reason every time he saw me, so parapen was useless. Then he kidnapped me, and injected me with a slime syringe I had on me and turned me into a slime. So I tried to kill him as a slime. All the crazy shit he did really helped. Finally killed him when he was an idiot. But then you HAD to revive him. And then defend him to the death when I tried to get him before you got him in the brig section. I should have just reproduced and grabbed him in the mass panic. Ah well. (also, I wasn't dead, I just wanted to guilt trip you for murdering me and stop you from going in there and killing my baby self)

Tl;Dr Terribad captain going weird as shit, crazy shit went down.

If not for that weird as shit captain, I would have stole his teleporter when I killed him, put a beacon in arrivals, and beamed in a massive slime army to stop people escaping on the shuttle. It would have been GLORIOUS. But what happened was funny as shit so I'm happy.

Also, might want to reprimand that captain. He was literally just shooting anyone who got close to him. I was going to invite him to xeno to look at my progress, then parapen and space him but he literally shot and cuffed me me everytime I tried to get close enough to talk, then he stole CO2and released it all over the station, and teleported everywhere. What the fuck is a traitor supposed to do with a Captain like that?

[Knight of Fools]

Dx28 was playing as Theodor Tebatians, the captain, and basically screwing around and trolling. It kind of ruined the round and made it unfun for no reason. Just putting this here because there aren't any Admins on.

[andrea]

don't forget releasing CO2 into escape wing for whatever reason, then melting many of AI core walls and forcefully take the AI to research, insisting several times that AI was broken despite all evidence to the opposite ( including the research console itself, which said AI was fine).


by the way, what happened to telecomms hub? did the immovable rod destroy it?

[Kaitol]

I dunno. Being a slime ruined my plans but it was still funny as hell. Teleporting captain trying to run from a slime who can go anywhere on the station instantly.

Plus his reaction when I turned into a slime from that syringe was PRICELESS.

[ThtblovesDF]

It seems silly to complain if you - a traitor - get stunned (not killed as it seems) by your target. Maybe he got intel, maybe you where less then stealthy (maybe don't assault the captain in his own chamber or whatever you did) - doesn't seem terri-bad to practice self defence, especially working self defence. All your "could have, would have, might have" is equally silly, it happend as it happend - you can't sue someone for hampering a possiblity.

Sorry that you didn't get a easy "win", which by the sound of your post and the amount of swears in it, wouldn't have been all that graceful.



** I would love to be a slime :/  - sure as hell beats being, like, you know, human or worse, a dead human.

[andrea]

Thtb, were you the captain? if so, I'd like to hear the detailed answer to what happened as well.
you may have got intelligence on traitor, that is fine. If all you did was stun and arrest the traitor. There are tons of other things, however, which involved other crew members.

[Kaitol]

But I didn't do ANYTHING. I was in research where I was supposed to be. He literally, just stunned me in passing in the hallways for NO reason at ALL. Then cuffed me. It wasn't self defense, I never got within a square of him and didn't have any weapons out. There was literally NO REASON to it. And he did it like FOUR TIMES.

All I did the entire round was my job. I was careful not to do anything suspicious the ENTIRE round. He had no intel, he didn't arrest me. He just stunned me, cuffed me, stole a CO2 tank, and left. The fact that I was a traitor trying to kill him was a complete coincidence. He was stunning other people too.

The Captain does not get to shoot anyone within 15 feet of him. That is not self-defense. That is crazy-person stuff.