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[scrdest]

We are not amused.

FTFY

[mainiac]

But Poland was partly responsible for blocking formation of anti-Nazi Germany coalition?

Spoiler: longpost (click to show/hide)

But there was an anti-Nazi coalition: France, England, Poland, the United States (economic embargo).  It wasn't the coaltion everyone wanted but it would have been sufficient if Stalin hadn't decided to ally with Hitler and start supplying him with resources.  Without Soviet trade, Germany simply lacked the resources to even feed itself, let alone go on a conquering spree.

The pattern before WWII is a series of increasingly stupid escalations by Hitler.  Each escalation was an increasingly desperate gamble to try and escape the effects of the previous escalation.  The result is that Hitler had painted himself into a completely strategically untenable situation but then Stalin switches sides and bails him out.  Put yourself in the shoes of a European or American diplomat in January 1938 for a second and consider their views on Hitlers diplomatic position.

Germany just had their second foreign exchange crisis of Hitlers time.  This is crucial because Germany can not supply or even feed itself without imports.  Food prices are escalating in Germany despite a good harvest.  Heavy rationing (especially of protein) was in effect even before the war started.  The Nazi party was canceling prestige projects to subsidize food to keep their popularity up.  Germany desperately, desperately needs to resume foreign trade to stabalize it's currency but that requires Hitler dial back the bellicose language and stop breaking treaties.

So then you decide to play devils advocate and ask what if instead Hitler ramps up the belligerence even more?  Germany has run out of foreign currency but if he invades Austria he can loot their banks for money.  Well, devils advocate, then Hitler's position is even worse.  Now he has money to stabilize the reichsmark but he can't spend it because Germany is under strategic materials embargo from all trading partners.  As a result, all of those weapons he wants to get built have to get canceled for lack of raw materials (and there were massive cancellations of weapons orders in 1938).  So Hitler would be stupid to do that and if he does, we can deal with it.

But then you decide to play devils advocate some more and ask what if he invades again after that.  Germany doesn't have the raw materials to build weapons but Czeckslovakia had a larges arms industry that could be conquered.  Well, then Hitler has just invaded two countries in rapid succession.  The embargo goes from strategic materials to everything.  Now Germany doesn't have the food to feed it's population and is going to have food riots in 1940.  Now Germany has nothing but a tiny trickle of domestic oil.  If Hitler isn't kicked out by 1940, he will surely have to negotiate from a position of weakness.

But hey, let's suppose that Hitler just keeps doing more of the same.  He can't buy the food to feed Germany so instead he will invade Poland and take food by force.  There isn't enough food in Poland for both Poland and Germany, so the Poles will suffer.  Well then Germany just started a really stupid fight.  They've just made certain that they are in a war that they are massively, massively unprepared for.  They dont have the steel or copper to make artillery shells and they dont have the oil to operate trucks or planes.  They can defend themselves for a few weeks against the French or Soviets and then their army will grind to a halt.  Their army will have nothing but small arms and their people will be starving, no way they would want that.

So for a diplomat or other savvy observer in January 1938, escalations by Germany wouldn't seem like a good idea.  If they keep escalating, they just get bigger and bigger problems until finally there is a horrific collapse.  This is why the German central bank was begging Hitler to change course.  This is why the army was push for manufacturers to slow down production of weapons.

But instead, Stalin decides to throw Hitler a lifeline.  Germany has no oil, has no copper, has no food so Stalin supplies them all.  Stalin thought he was being clever, playing the two sides against each other.  Instead he turned a localized threat into a world war.

tl;dr The coalition that formed wasn't the one Stalin wanted but it was perfectly capable of doing the job if Stalin hadn't allied with Hitler.

[Sergarr]

tl;dr The coalition that formed wasn't the one Stalin wanted but it was perfectly capable of doing the job if Stalin hadn't allied with Hitler.

For a coalition that was "perfectly suited for doing the job", it sure did do jack shit to meaningfully damage Hitler when he opened the hostilities in Europe. Even if Germany would be only armed with small arms, I doubt that France and UK would actually invade it. More likely, they would eventually make yet another Munich type of deal which would legitimize Germany's invasions a la Austria's anchluss. "Why die for Danzig?" and all that.

[Sheb]

Except they did die for Danzig by declaring war on a (much stronger than without the USSR) Germany? So your point don't make any sense?

[Kot]

Russian 1939 invasion of Poland an act of self-defense, Poland shares responsibility for World War 2 with Nazi Germany.  Poles unamused. 

But Poland was partly responsible for blocking formation of anti-Nazi Germany coalition? I do remember reading about how Poland's officials absolutely refused to have USSR help them against Nazi Germany, multiple times.

What? Like, seriously, what the fuck?!
Do you seriously think it would be a good idea for Poland to ally with aggresive (1920) communist state that literally told everyone to face that they intend to invade them and spread communism everywhere? It would be worse idea than allying with Hitler.

Except they did die for Danzig by declaring war on a (much stronger than without the USSR) Germany? So your point don't make any sense?

It's not like that. They declared the war because they kinda had to, thanks to alliances with Poland and whatnot, but they didin't actually made much to even annoy Hitler. In the end, they could either start an actual war with Germany and possibly die for Danzing, or do nothing and die for Danzing anyway. They have choosen the latter option.

[mainiac]

it sure did do jack shit to meaningfully damage Hitler when he opened the hostilities in Europe

You mean besides depriving his arms industries of every input he needed and making it so Germany would literally be in famine in a couple years?  They didn't do jack shit, they did a hell of a lot and then Stalin proceeded to undermine everything.  I think it's wrong to assign blame indirectly and say Stalin is "to blame" for the choices the Nazis made to be horrible people.  However Stalin was the enabler of this behavior.

Understand the context and mechanism of the Versailles treaty.  The intent was to deny Germany the domestic capacity for warmaking on the same scale.  Germany on the eve of WWII had a fraction of the resources that it had on the eve of WWII.  The key countries that Germany imported from (UK, France, Benelux, US, Mexico, Romania, Poland) all had embargoed Germany.  The framework had been successful at denying Germany the resources to be a true threat... until the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact surprised everyone when the two countries most ideologically opposed signed a deal.

It's not like that. They declared the war because they kinda had to, thanks to alliances with Poland and whatnot, but they didin't actually made much to even annoy Hitler.

The blockade of Germany which quickly exhausted their supplies of steel, oil, copper, tungsten, etc. did considerably more then annoy Hitler.

[Sergarr]

Russian 1939 invasion of Poland an act of self-defense, Poland shares responsibility for World War 2 with Nazi Germany.  Poles unamused. 

But Poland was partly responsible for blocking formation of anti-Nazi Germany coalition? I do remember reading about how Poland's officials absolutely refused to have USSR help them against Nazi Germany, multiple times.

What? Like, seriously, what the fuck?!
Do you seriously think it would be a good idea for Poland to ally with aggresive (1920) communist state that literally told everyone to face that they intend to invade them and spread communism everywhere? It would be worse idea than allying with Hitler.

I dunno, from my subjective viewpoint, it would've been a better idea. I mean, at least communism didn't intentionally plan for wiping out hundreds of millions of people, unlike Hitler and his Generalplan Ost. Life under communism sucks, but it's still life; meanwhile Hitler planned to kill/deport 80-85% of Poles.

Except they did die for Danzig by declaring war on a (much stronger than without the USSR) Germany? So your point don't make any sense?

Let's read again what I've posted, now with emphasis:

it sure did do jack shit to meaningfully damage Hitler when he opened the hostilities in Europe

The bolded part refers to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War. They formally declared war, sure, but they didn't actually sent their troops to "die for Danzig" as much as they would if they were in a real coalition.

[Kot]

communism didn't intentionally plan for wiping out hundreds of millions of people

Are you sure?

[Sergarr]

communism didn't intentionally plan for wiping out hundreds of millions of people

Are you sure?

OK:

communism didn't intentionally plan for wiping out hundreds of millions of people

I believe information contained within the bolded part answers your question.

[Helgoland]

Okay, for the 'hundreds of millions' of people I'd like a citation from you, Sergarr. I doubt that there even were sufficiently many people in the relevant parts of Eastern Europe to make killing more than 199 million people feasible without importing them first.

By the way, funny but cruel Polish joke I heard today:

Who was the biggest Polish patriot? Dzerzhinsky, because no Pole killed more Russians than he did.

[Kot]

communism didn't intentionally plan for wiping out hundreds of millions of people

Are you sure?

OK:

communism didn't intentionally plan for wiping out hundreds of millions of people

I believe information contained within the bolded part answers your question.

Possibly, maybe. It's hard to argue that Nazis weren't the worst (and it's not what I'm trying to prove) because the numbers clearly show they are and pretty much were, but the point here isin't that Germany didin't had plans, the point is that alliance with Soviet Union would mean instant war, while alliance with Nazi Germany would still leave some ways open. It's not like that Germany would start executing Poles the second they sign the treaty, which is pretty much exactly what would Soviets do.

I doubt that there even were sufficiently many people in the relevant parts of Eastern Europe to make killing more than 199 million people feasible without importing them first.

It was exactly what I wanted to check but finally said that it's too late for me to do so.

[Sergarr]

Well there's 35 million Poles, there's about 170 million people in Soviet Union, most of which were living in Eastern Europe, Czehoslovakia had 15 million, then there are Baltic states, which add about (1+2.5+2=5.5) millions of people... and since all of that data is from 1939 or earlier you can add in the population growth from 10-20 years (which was the time alloted for realization of Generalplan Ost)...

Still, I think I have exaggerated a little. Not "hundreds of millions", but definitely "more than than a hundred million" with good chances of "more than a hundred and fifty million".

In any case, it would still be about one order of magnitude higher than Soviet mass-atrocity death count.

[martinuzz]

Catalonia independence bants begins again

With over 80% of votes having been counted now, it looks certain that the seperatist movement will get an absolute majority of the votes.
They now claim to have enough mandate to start negotiations about the process of seceding Catalonia from Spain.

RIP Spain, about to lose it's best economic region.

I wonder if the Republic of Catalonia will retain EU membership, or if they will have to re-apply.

[Sergarr]

I rather doubt Spain is going to accept them seceding just like that.

[mainiac]

it sure did do jack shit to meaningfully damage Hitler when he opened the hostilities in Europe

The bolded part refers to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War. They formally declared war, sure, but they didn't actually sent their troops to "die for Danzig" as much as they would if they were in a real coalition.

Again, ground military actions are not all of military action.  Why should they waste lives on stupid offensives when it's Germany that needs to attack before the blockade forces their surrender?