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[LordSlowpoke]

non-countries can't genocide anything, genocide has to be organized to work

[Arx]

So guys, have any of you ever been to South Africa...? No...?

It's bad, sure (I've ranted at length on this topic), but I wouldn't say it's genocide. If it is, it's the quietest genocide I've ever heard of. I'm a South African white person, I'm in a position to know and be worried. Have a read.

Now, I might be being deceived or brainwashed or whatever, but I think

persecution of the White farmers

is a bit extreme.

Institutionalised racism? Probably. The conservative Afrikaans bogeyman of 'reverse apartheid'? I'm not ruling it out. Genocide? Xenophobia's a bigger problem right now.

Hitler did all of that evil stuff, saw it didn't work well, and went into politics. Gerry Adams did the same. It's a trend.

Doesn't make him a changed man, just one with the same agenda but a different method.

Uhm, wait, what did Mandela do when he was a politician that earns him a Hitler comparison? Having a quick glance at Wikipedia reveals no attempt at killing people, campaigning against whites or even retaliating against the old regime after he left the prison.

Post-prison, very little. Pre-prison, though, he was still in politics. And that was when he founded the ANC's military/terrorist wing, which was very much a terrorist organisation. However, I would like to quote this from their manifesto:

We are fighting for a South Africa in which there will be peace and harmony and equal rights for all people.

We are not racialists, as the white oppressors are. The African National Congress has a message of freedom for all who live in our country.

let me just casually lampshade the existence of that one guy who'll say whites can't be genocided

carry on

Every time that one guy shows up I cringe.

[TD1]

-US genociding blacks.

Hey, look at the media and you'll find this one is plausible!

But yea, the white farmers thing was a bad example. That's more dereliction of care. I suppose the main thing you can say about the group is that it was based around the extermination of the Apartheid, and very often this type of thing can go on to being about the extermination of an ethnicity. As their "traditional funeral song" indicates.

Hitler did all of that evil stuff, saw it didn't work well, and went into politics. Gerry Adams did the same. It's a trend.

Doesn't make him a changed man, just one with the same agenda but a different method.

Uhm, wait, what did Mandela do when he was a politician that earns him a Hitler comparison? Having a quick glance at Wikipedia reveals no attempt at killing people, campaigning against whites or even retaliating against the old regime after he left the prison.

Hitler was seen as a saint for giving bread and jobs, and for fighting the Treaty of Versailles. Likewise Mandela was seen as a saint, despite his history in attacks on civilians. Hitler went to jail, Mandela went to jail. Hitler came out of jail and changed his tactics to the political side of things, as did Mandela. Both got power they didn't through their terrorist organisations.

The only difference is that Hitler didn't play it safe - he went on all out massacre. Mandela didn't, perhaps learning from Idi Amin's, the Ugandan, example. Mandela was no where near as bad as Idi Amin - he went fully genocidal, and it got him the chop- politically speaking. Physically, he got the kidney chop. So I'd say Mandela put on a good public face, but after committing hundreds of crimes, I doubt your thoughts will be changed for the good by being incarcerated.

Of course, as Arx says, I haven't been to South Africa. I do think the media definitely rose tinged Mandela, but opinions on the extent to which that is true will vary.

[Sheb]

Yeah, Mandela is remembered for leading a fight against an horrible regime, and then being remarkably unrevengeful once getting to power. Compare the situation of whites in SA and Zimbabwe for example.

[Antsan]

So, you say that Mandela's intentions are important enough to ignore what he actually did.

As far as I'm concerned a person can dream about killing people all day. I certainly won't like them, but as long as they don't kill people they're still better than someone who does.

[Kot]

The "curve" is working out better than I thought it will be.

[TD1]

Yeah, Mandela is remembered for leading a fight against an horrible regime, and then being remarkably unrevengeful once getting to power. Compare the situation of whites in SA and Zimbabwe for example.

So, you say that Mandela's intentions are important enough to ignore what he actually did.

As far as I'm concerned a person can dream about killing people all day. I certainly won't like them, but as long as they don't kill people they're still better than someone who does.

What he actually did? What did he do? End the Apartheid? No he did not. He could not have done it without the aid of De Klerk. What he did was get sent to prison. People rallied around that. He was released by De Klerk, and together they negotiated the new form of government. Though I suppose my African history is patchy to say the least. Maybe Arx would have better knowledge and will soundly correct me.

He didn't dream about killing people. He killed them. He was a terrorist who brushed up for the cameras. Does the time gap matter all that much for you?

[notquitethere]

Th4DwArfY1, I don't think fighting in the just fight against a racist and oppressive regime is equivalent in any relevant way to orchestrating the mechanised murder of millions of people.

I do agree with you in a wider sense though. A lot of people's heroes have killed. From literary heroes like Hemingway and Tolstoy, to anyone who is called a 'war hero'. Every national leader kills either indirectly through policy or directly through wars, execution and assassination. States are built on the monopolisation of violence, Mandela's included.

[Antsan]

He didn't dream about killing people. He killed them. He was a terrorist who brushed up for the cameras. Does the time gap matter all that much for you?

I saw The Act Of Killing and was really really conflicted about the ending. Yes, the time gap matters. If we are unable to see people as being different from what they were before, there would be less incentive for people to change for the better.

[TD1]

Th4DwArfY1, I don't think fighting in the just fight against a racist and oppressive regime is equivalent in any relevant way to orchestrating the mechanised murder of millions of people.

True - but there is a certain undertone to his terrorist associates. But he seems to be the man who crawled through a river of shit and came out clean on the other side. Somehow.

Still, he has more than Aparthied blood on his hands. His organisation, himself included, killed huge numbers of civilians.

He didn't dream about killing people. He killed them. He was a terrorist who brushed up for the cameras. Does the time gap matter all that much for you?

I saw The Act Of Killing and was really really conflicted about the ending. Yes, the time gap matters. If we are unable to see people as being different from what they were before, there would be less incentive for people to change for the better.

I could get that, but I don't believe he changed. I think he found himself suddenly popular, people calling acclaim through the bars of his prison cell. I don't think it changed him, exactly, just gave him a way to craft a new image that the media would lap up.

[Arx]

You've seen Arx Argues with Dwarfy: Religion; now get ready for Arx Argues with Dwarfy: Politics.

Both got power they didn't through their terrorist organisations.

Mandela retired at the end of his first term as president, which makes it kind of unlikely that he was just in it for the power (which is more than I can say for the current ANC). Also, he was a pretty active philanthropist and opposer of war.

I'd also like to point out that South Africa is still the only country to have managed something like the Truth and Reconciliation Commision. Amnesty for the NP human rights criminals - not the act of a genocidal monster.

He didn't single-handedly overturn apartheid, no (that was already happening), but he was an important figure in the negotiations between the ANC and the NP. As with the TRC, though, I think it's important not to forget that he was in a situation where if he wanted, organising a genocide would probably not have been hard - white people are less than nine percent of South Africa's population. He didn't. The only major political violence after his release was, ironically, the Inkatha Freedom Party against the ANC - black against black. (Edit: I guess I should source that.)

So yeah, I don't think he was a saint (I actually quite strongly dislike the general idolisation of Mandela), but you can't really make a case that he was a genocidal monster - any more than I am, or you are, or Obama is, or Pope Francis is, or <public figure> is, or <person> is.

[TD1]

If you wanted an argument, you're going to be disappointed. All things considered, my argument doesn't have many legs to stand on. I will maintain that he was a terrorist, and whilst not genocidal, certainly not a nice person. After his prison bout, he found himself with a new image and worked to keep it. He was a ruthless person before it, and saying "I regret it" when a politician isn't exactly concrete evidence. Still, I perhaps did devalue him a bit, but hey. Everyone else over values him.

Didn't the country take a dive for the worse in his reign? STDs, crime, economy? And wasn't he friendly with dictators?

[Arx]

If you wanted an argument, you're going to be disappointed.

Not particularly looking for one. In hindsight,I probably should have added some kind of indication that that was a joke.

Didn't the country take a dive for the worse in his reign? STDs, crime, economy? And wasn't he friendly with dictators?

It's entirely possible. Either he wasn't very good at running a country (although he probably did better than the current government), or the problems were there all along but happening to black people and thus ignored. As for dictators, yep. The ANC and dictators get along altogether too well for my taste.

[Helgoland]

Are there any alternatives in sight?

[TD1]

If you wanted an argument, you're going to be disappointed.

Not particularly looking for one. In hindsight,I probably should have added some kind of indication that that was a joke.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say you were - sort of highlighting the theme of me backing down, as it were