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[Loud Whispers]

The fall of a cancerous institution of German suicide thrust over Europe in violation of democracy is pleasure to my loins

[ChairmanPoo]

I hope it's a reform rather than a fall. Because for all it's flaws the EU has brought some genuinely good stuff. The problem is that as it is now it's economic policies are wholly subordinated to the whims of large transnational corporations. It's a frigging joke that while we are told that sacrifices are necessary, and getting stuck with social cuts and loss of labor rights in the name of this, those same great corporations are making more profits than ever.

Ideally the structure should be reformed into something more workable. I hope that at the very least we get to keep most of the good bits.

[TD1]

The fall of a cancerous institution of German suicide thrust over Europe in violation of democracy is pleasure to my loins

The prophet hath spoken.

[Helgoland]

The problem is that as it is now it's economic policies are wholly subordinated to the whims of large transnational corporations.

Seriously, source? Because the way you've written it that's some serious conspiracy theory-level bullshit.

Generally I agree with you though: This whole crisis could only happen because the European institutions are imperfect. We should not stray from the goal of an ever closer union. Maybe a first step would be equipping the European parliament with some teeth and handing over the Greek crisis to it, in order to avoid the 'country vs country' spin and make this a truly European matter.

[mainiac]

Maybe a first step would be equipping the European parliament with some teeth and handing over the Greek crisis to it, in order to avoid the 'country vs country' spin and make this a truly European matter.

There's a problem with that.  The transnational institutions came down heavily against Greece when this began.  They made predictions like this:

Spoiler: OOPS (click to show/hide)

And those predictions let German politicians act like their banks and hedge funds were guiltless and it was all the Greeks' fault.  So basically you are saying give even more power to the ones who fucked up and take power away from the people who tried to stop them.

I'm all for fixing the Greek debt crisis.  I'm all for European integration.  Just because they are both good doesn't mean they will necessarily work together.  I could see some solutions to the Greek debt crisis through more integration.  I just dont think a stronger European parliment is going to produce any of them.

[evilcherry]

The problem is that as it is now it's economic policies are wholly subordinated to the whims of large transnational corporations.

Seriously, source? Because the way you've written it that's some serious conspiracy theory-level bullshit.

Generally I agree with you though: This whole crisis could only happen because the European institutions are imperfect. We should not stray from the goal of an ever closer union. Maybe a first step would be equipping the European parliament with some teeth and handing over the Greek crisis to it, in order to avoid the 'country vs country' spin and make this a truly European matter.

Still can't get why Europe just won't accept single fiscal policy. If people are flocking to Germany because of this, at least their unemployment benefits will be guaranteed.

[smjjames]

The problem is that as it is now it's economic policies are wholly subordinated to the whims of large transnational corporations.

Seriously, source? Because the way you've written it that's some serious conspiracy theory-level bullshit.

Generally I agree with you though: This whole crisis could only happen because the European institutions are imperfect. We should not stray from the goal of an ever closer union. Maybe a first step would be equipping the European parliament with some teeth and handing over the Greek crisis to it, in order to avoid the 'country vs country' spin and make this a truly European matter.

Still can't get why Europe just won't accept single fiscal policy. If people are flocking to Germany because of this, at least their unemployment benefits will be guaranteed.

I'm guessing it's because (or at least partially because) of different economies and different priorities and stuff. Plus there isn't a single economy called Europe, theres a bunch of economies that make up the collective European economy.

[evilcherry]

The problem is that as it is now it's economic policies are wholly subordinated to the whims of large transnational corporations.

Seriously, source? Because the way you've written it that's some serious conspiracy theory-level bullshit.

Generally I agree with you though: This whole crisis could only happen because the European institutions are imperfect. We should not stray from the goal of an ever closer union. Maybe a first step would be equipping the European parliament with some teeth and handing over the Greek crisis to it, in order to avoid the 'country vs country' spin and make this a truly European matter.

Still can't get why Europe just won't accept single fiscal policy. If people are flocking to Germany because of this, at least their unemployment benefits will be guaranteed.

I'm guessing it's because (or at least partially because) of different economies and different priorities and stuff. Plus there isn't a single economy called Europe, theres a bunch of economies that make up the collective European economy.

Then it should. One single set of law, taxation and benefits everywhere from Algarve to Crete to Tallinn to Donegal can only be, in aggregate, good.

[mainiac]

Good in the long term but very difficult to transition.  Look at the US.  The states haven't reached the long term balance yet even after well over a century of convergence.  In Europe you have language barriers on top of that.  There's a lot in the favor but there are a lot of challenges and it's a very complicated subject.  A strong case could be made that the catastrophic early results give reason to proceed more cautiously in the future.

[Sheb]

Also, from a purely political point of view, lots of people dislike handing sovereignty to the European level. Just look at LW's euronecrophilia hardon.

Edit: Varufakis resigned. Can't say I'm sad to see him go.

[CaptainMcClellan]

As an outsider: Why create a United State of Europe? Seems like it'll just cause worsening of conflict and bind all of the faults and dangers of all the countries with scarcely any benefits. Sure, the freedom to travel is nice, but there may be times when closed borders will be necessary, e.g. if social unrest in France worsens. Granted, nobody wants to see closed borders and European integration sounds nice, but is it really?

Good in the long term but very difficult to transition.  Look at the US.  The states haven't reached the long term balance yet even after well over a century of convergence.  In Europe you have language barriers on top of that.  There's a lot in the favor but there are a lot of challenges and it's a very complicated subject.  A strong case could be made that the catastrophic early results give reason to proceed more cautiously in the future.

Also, basically that. :| It'd be one thing if it were like the unification of German states in the 19th and 20th centuries where you have a group of ethnically similar peoples who were already essentially under one power sphere and mostly speak at least one common language... but when it comes to combining Spain and France, just as an example. How practical would it really be? Also, wouldn't it cause a spike in political unrest among people already discontent with EU policy? I really would like not to have to hear about a large-scale European war in my lifetime. :/

EDIT: Also, forgive me if my knowledge of European history is busted, I don't want to offend, I'm just working with what I know and remember.

Edit Edit: Isn't there already a large amount of political, economic, and travelling interworkings in Europe? And well, again, outsider, but has it even helped to go as far as it has?

Also, anybody know what Russia's doing right now?

[Helgoland]

Sure, the freedom to travel is nice, but there may be times when closed borders will be necessary, e.g. if social unrest in France worsens. Granted, nobody wants to see closed borders and European integration sounds nice, but is it really?

You're American, right? I think you probably have no idea just how small Europe is. It's easily possible here to travel through five countries per foot in less than a week. No free travel would be horrible! Having to get a visum every time I go visit Sheb or, hell, just want to visit that one antique market in Tongeren... I remember one thursday night when a couple friends and me drunkenly decided to go to Amsterdam. Twelve hours later we were there! That wouldn't be possible without open borders. And I'm really, really not worried about French social unrest - it's not like it will lead to another invasion.
For the same reason a single currency is a huge boon - again, having to exchange money all the time is fucking annoying. I get pissed every time I go to England because of that reason.

It'd be one thing if it were like the unification of German states in the 19th and 20th centuries where you have a group of ethnically similar peoples who were already essentially under one power sphere and mostly speak at least one common language...

One language? Ha! A Plattdeutscher, a Rhinelandian and a Bavarian speaking in their respective dialects would not understand each other at all - even less than a Frenchman would understand a Spaniard. And back when Germany was united those dialects were all that the common folks spoke. Only the elite had a common language - and in today's Europe we have English, no?

[martinuzz]

I for one would like to see the borders closed again. I'm quite sure that would really help with reducing the number of news items about grenades, rocket launchers and high explosives being found in some criminal motorclub's headquarters. It likely would also reduce the number of liquidations with semi- and full automatic weapons we've been seeing in Amsterdam lately, and I'm also quite sure it'd be a serious blow to human trafficking.

Schengen has made the EU the paradise for smugglers and big organized crime

[scriver]

We don't necessarily need closed borders to allow greater border control. I too would like, for example, or ability to quarantine imported animals back before we end up with more parasites and diseases returning that have been extinct here for ~100 years. Getting more control over passing crime would he very nice too.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

a Rhinelandian

Absolute aside: I've always heard this as Rhinelander, not Rhinelandian. Is there a consensus on this term?