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[ChairmanPoo]

The Public Health secretary has come forward and stated that the parents of the kid feel crushed by what has happened and feel "deceived" by anti-vaccers.

Sounds too good to be true, tbh. I've known cases which are... remarkably similar, and yet the wake-up process is much more gradual.

[Dutchling]

Anti-vaccination movement kills people and revives deadly diseases, news at 11.

The main problem being it seems anti-vaccers think

see thats where you went wrong

[SirQuiamus]

I would like to see your face if your countries (or future nations if you are separatists) were cut to pieces just because. Or just a region of them were separated without reason. Just because the history-fiction of some lunatics that no historian outside that region believes.

Ah, yes. This is a very topical talking point in our modern-day Europe, and a source of some very troubled musings for each of us. Let us all ask ourselves: What if my beloved country was about to be drawn and quartered and broken on the wheel by a group of scheming, thieving, deceiving meanies?

What if the Åland Islands suddenly decided to secede from my glorious country, allying itself with the deceitful Swedes, and depriving me and my countrymen of crisps and salvaged champagne? Surely I would fly into a white-hot rage, cursing their narrow-minded, chauvinistic selfishness, and swearing vengeance for such an unforgivable insult to my sacred Fatherland. I would burn my Moomin books and uninstall Linux, and I would feed their crisps to the pigs and pour their champagne down the drain! Then I would cry helplessly for days on end, kissing Mannerheim's portrait a thousand times in a rapturous fit of slighted national pride.

Now I'm asking you, Bay12: What would you do in a similar situation?     

[Sheb]

Well, coming from a country which is also being destroyed by nationalism, and with nationalists that are actually worrying (the Flemish nationalist party is pretty much a Belgian UKIP, only it rants about Belgium instead of Europe), I don't really care. I dislike the kind of covert dislocation strategy pursued by the NVA, but if the Flemish voted to leave Belgium, good for them.

[SirQuiamus]

I've got the impression that Belgian nationalism of the unionist type is in short supply.

Remember that guy who tried to sell Belgium on eBay? What was the highest bid? 5€?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Either it's happening in North Carolina or it isn't.

If it is, find the presumptuous bastards who thought they had the right to take my titular title and usurp their power.

If it isn't, track down RedKing and freeformschooler, then enact phase one of The Plan.

[Erkki]

In Ålands case, at least that place would stop being a local security vacuum(it being demilitarized zone and everything) even if we were to lose some taxes. And Taffel Crisps.

[Zrk2]

Well, my country has enshrined it in law that if you want to secede, you can, so there's that. Then again I'm a filthy Canadian, so I don't get a politics thread.

[penguinofhonor]

eh?

[Antsan]

I get the impression that owlbread wot be satisfied until Europe looks like ck2 shattered balance.

I never realized separatism was just a special case of nationalism.

And yet again, a dissenting group somehow turns into accusations of them all being Neo-nazis. First Ukraine, now Catalonia; soon, Scotland and Venice.

You got that mixed up – the separatists in the Ukraine where accusing the ones in Kiev of being fascists.

I would like to see your face if your countries (or future nations if you are separatists) were cut to pieces just because. Or just a region of them were separated without reason. Just because the history-fiction of some lunatics that no historian outside that region believes.

My face when that happens peacefully:
Oh, damn, I would be so happy if Bavaria finally get what they want and become their own state. Then they could even stop complaining about how they pay for everyone else!

[MetalRocks]

I could not help answer to some of the nonsense in this threat:

If you want to argue that that it was subsumed by the Kingdom of Aragon, then I'd just like to point out that the County of Barcelona, its precursor, is what inherited that kingdom.

Simply the King of Aragon change the name of his possessions from Kingdom of Aragon to Crown of Aragon when he inherited the County of Barcelona.
So the County of Barcelona became part of the Crown of Aragon. Later on the Crown of Aragon conquered the Kingdom of Valencia, the Kingdom of Mallorca, the kingdom of Sicily and the Kingdom of Naples. But it never had a Kingdom of Catalonia because it never existed. Just a bunch of other Counties with no political unity such as the County of Barcelona.

And there you have made your fatal mistake. The Count of Barcelona inherited the Kingdom of Aragon, not the other way around. They ruled from Barcelona, as Catalan kings. The Crown of Aragon was born of this union, and shows this under its coat of arms (the dynastic shield of the house of Barcelona). After all, it was a wedding between a Catalan count and an Aragonese queen that created the Crown of Aragon, not the other way around. It would be foolish to say the opposite, that Aragon inherited Barcelona and simply changed the name. Regardless, this is one giant strawman because you keep insisting that unless the people either were a colony or a kingdom, then they shouldn't exist as a political entity. People have already mentioned Finland and Ireland, which you ignore outright because your argument falls apart the moment you are to consider them.

You have too much imagination (or your separatist sources). How are they going to be the Catalan Kings if Catalonia did not even exist? They were the Aragonese Kings. Catalonia did not exist then, and Catalonia was not expected to exist. The Crown of Aragon existed then and Aragon exists today. The County of Barcelona existed then and still exists today. But Catalonia did not exist back then.

I think the whole "Catalonia has never been a single unified sovereign state, therefore it is not a nation" argument is simply a non starter. Ireland has never been a single sovereign unified state, yet a state was created (albeit missing a chunk) after the war of independence in the early 19th C. I believe Finland was the same.

In the 19th century there was a war of independence, yes. The war of the Spanish Independence against Napoleon. They fought for independence, like the rest of Spain, against Napoleon, not against the rest of Spain. Catalans fought for an independent Spain, like the rest of Spain.

Also, Spain was once ruled by the Habsburgs (or at least a branch of their family), so the Catalonians were subjects of Austria at one point.

Just tossing a random and possibly partially inaccurate bit of history in the discussion as I'm barely even paying attention to the whole Catalonian discussion.

Catalonia was subject of the Habsburg like the rest of Spain until the 18th Century. In fact Catalonia was created by the Habsburg: Emperor Charles V unified some Counties without political unity to create the political unity of Catalonia in 1521

[scriver]

If only I could think of a time in modern history when some place wanted to depart from Sweden... Oh, right, I already brought up the Swedo-Norwegian Union that ended in 1905 with a peaceful dissolution (despite our Dear Monarch going as far as to argue for war at the time). I think that worked out pretty well for both of us.

And if, say, the Sami nation in the north would want to secede, or the Gutes of Gotland? I would be fine with it. Coming to terms with borders I'm the question of Sami state would be a hellishly complicated task, but that's beside the point. People have a right of self-determination.

I could not help answer to some of the nonsense in this threat:

If you want to argue that that it was subsumed by the Kingdom of Aragon, then I'd just like to point out that the County of Barcelona, its precursor, is what inherited that kingdom.

Simply the King of Aragon change the name of his possessions from Kingdom of Aragon to Crown of Aragon when he inherited the County of Barcelona.
So the County of Barcelona became part of the Crown of Aragon. Later on the Crown of Aragon conquered the Kingdom of Valencia, the Kingdom of Mallorca, the kingdom of Sicily and the Kingdom of Naples. But it never had a Kingdom of Catalonia because it never existed. Just a bunch of other Counties with no political unity such as the County of Barcelona.

And there you have made your fatal mistake. The Count of Barcelona inherited the Kingdom of Aragon, not the other way around. They ruled from Barcelona, as Catalan kings. The Crown of Aragon was born of this union, and shows this under its coat of arms (the dynastic shield of the house of Barcelona). After all, it was a wedding between a Catalan count and an Aragonese queen that created the Crown of Aragon, not the other way around. It would be foolish to say the opposite, that Aragon inherited Barcelona and simply changed the name. Regardless, this is one giant strawman because you keep insisting that unless the people either were a colony or a kingdom, then they shouldn't exist as a political entity. People have already mentioned Finland and Ireland, which you ignore outright because your argument falls apart the moment you are to consider them.

You have too much imagination (or your separatist sources). How are they going to be the Catalan Kings if Catalonia did not even exist? They were the Aragonese Kings. Catalonia did not exist then, and Catalonia was not expected to exist. The Crown of Aragon existed then and Aragon exists today. The County of Barcelona existed then and still exists today. But Catalonia did not exist back then.

Catalonia is the land of the Catalan people. There doesnt have to exist a political entity called "Catalonia" for Catalonia to exist. It exists where the Catalan people exist. And no, the kings of Aragon during the time of the Barcelona dynasty where not Aragonese. They were a Catalan dynasty, were Catalonian rulers of the Kingdom of Aragon, and they ruled mainly from Barcelona.

[Loud Whispers]

Now I'm asking you, Bay12: What would you do in a similar situation?   

Grab my Necronomicon and summon Thatcher to demolish sneaky Swedes with her iron lady battle powers

And I got to look up more Spanish history, this conversation's getting interesting.

[RedKing]

Either it's happening in North Carolina or it isn't.

If it is, find the presumptuous bastards who thought they had the right to take my titular title and usurp their power.

If it isn't, track down RedKing and freeformschooler, then enact phase one of The Plan.

Operation Pig Squeal is GO.

Seriously, you're not going to find all that much anti secessionist sentiment from me. Hello, I'm a Southerner! Half of us are still trying to secede. And the other half are thinking, dear god yes let these people secede...just, somewhere else than here.

Most of the regions in the US that have the strongest secessionist tendencies are also the regions that the rest of the country would be happiest to see leave. Or as Jon Stewart put it a couple months ago, "You know who would really win in a war between Florida and Texas?? EVERYONE ELSE."

I would support Southern secessionism, as long as North Carolina could then secede from the New Confederacy. And possibly Orange County might need to secede from North Carolina. Eventually it winds up with me declaring the Principality of the Upper Eno, population 2 (4 every other weekend by treaty).

[Loud Whispers]

Catalonia is the land of the Catalan people. There doesnt have to exist a political entity called "Catalonia" for Catalonia to exist. It exists where the Catalan people exist.

Heh, I'm all for right to self-determination but you've got to have a bit stricter definitions than that. Though I do quite like the idea of getting a massive group of people together, moving to some nice forest that has thawed out from juicy global warming and then declaring independence against them. Greenland will be Dorfortland, home to Dorfort people