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[Zangi]

Iran's main PR problem with nuclear stuff is one of its own making, cause of their Hezbollah and their statements of Israel's destruction. 
I'd think turning their holy land into a nuclear wasteland is the last thing the religious fundamentalists would want...

Except the lands of israel is mentioned very little in their holy books (Jerusalem not even once). let's say that if Iran wanted to demolish israel they would have better backing in the quran than the opposition who might maintain its a holy muslim land and should be spared.

And religious fundamentalists have proven times and times again they have no problem destroying holy sites even if they are from their own religion. no need to open history books since we got a live presentation all over the middle east

Also, Iran "PR" problems is not confined to hezbollah and israel. a recent example can be this or this. Iran was and still is a fundamental imperialistic entity, except its too weak to actually do it openly and directly.

@Yemen/Houthis:  They are helping a minority population/freedom fighters break the yoke of an oppressive regime in Yemen, while the Saudi is trying to keep the current regime in power.
@ISIS destroying holy sites: They are actually just destroying blasphemous stuff that don't actually belong at the holy site.  Ya know, just clearing the place of graffiti.

  Its how you frame it.

I don't have any response for the others. 

[SirQuiamus]

One doesn't "call in national debt" like a loanshark or a bar tab.

I've been told that that's exactly what happened with Greece. Their stupid politicians pigged out on domestic and international loans, without reading the small print on contracts signed under foreign law. They were planning to just hand-wave the domestic debts away, but the international bonds were bought off the aftermarket by shady hedge funds, who just went: "Pay up, or we'll absolve the contracts and then you're fucked." As long as politicians are not getting smarter, the finance industry is perfect for extortion and hybrid warfare.     

[Grim Portent]

Provided you possess a sufficient degree of nonviolent power you can threaten nations with things other than destruction. Economic sanctions can be a very big threat to a nation that isn't self sufficient, religious bodies can be influential in some nations since religious causes can stir up a lot of unrest.

Christ on a cracker, do people not realize that beneficial as well as destructive relationships exist?  There's a reason that the Soviet Union had global power projection while Russian power barely extends into it's borders.  The Soviet Union actually offered people something positive in terms of a cultural and economic movement.  Sure it eventually went bust but it was something people could get behind and the Soviets backed up their movement with economic resources.

China today has it's military reach stop a few kilometers past it's borders but the promise of Chinese investment makes head's turn on the other side of the earth...

For some reason mutually beneficial power projection slipped my mind, something about the earlier part of the conversation put me into a conflict based mindset.

[mainiac]

One doesn't "call in national debt" like a loanshark or a bar tab.

I've been told that that's exactly what happened with Greece. Their stupid politicians pigged out on domestic and international loans, without reading the small print on contracts signed under foreign law. They were planning to just hand-wave the domestic debts away, but the international bonds were bought off the aftermarket by shady hedge funds, who just went: "Pay up, or we'll absolve the contracts and then you're fucked." As long as politicians are not getting smarter, the finance industry is perfect for extortion and hybrid warfare.   

Well you've been told by idiots.  That's a very poor description of a very complicated dynamic.  I mean for starters barely any greek debt at this point is even publicly owned.  Right now various national governments or European Union institutions own nearly all the debt.  And the private owners who previously owned the debt had half the value of that debt written off as a loss a couple years ago when the EU and debt holding national governments decided on that course of action.  The EU holds the actual power hiere the private lenders were just gambling on the willingness of the EU to respect the value of the debts.

[SirQuiamus]

One doesn't "call in national debt" like a loanshark or a bar tab.

I've been told that that's exactly what happened with Greece. Their stupid politicians pigged out on domestic and international loans, without reading the small print on contracts signed under foreign law. They were planning to just hand-wave the domestic debts away, but the international bonds were bought off the aftermarket by shady hedge funds, who just went: "Pay up, or we'll absolve the contracts and then you're fucked." As long as politicians are not getting smarter, the finance industry is perfect for extortion and hybrid warfare.   

Well you've been told by idiots.  That's a very poor description of a very complicated dynamic.  I mean for starters barely any greek debt at this point is even publicly owned.  Right now various national governments or European Union institutions own nearly all the debt.  And the private owners who previously owned the debt had half the value of that debt written off as a loss a couple years ago when the EU and debt holding national governments decided on that course of action.  The EU holds the actual power hiere the private lenders were just gambling on the willingness of the EU to respect the value of the debts.

I was really under the impression that privately-owned debt was a pretty important factor at the outbreak of the crisis, but meh, what do I know.

[mainiac]

Private debt was a factor in the crisis but that's not the same thing as the private lenders extorting Greece.  If you bought Greek debt before the crisis you would have lost quite a bit of money.  If you bought Greek debt after the crisis it would have been something of a mixed bag but generally the total return on investment including the haircuts and forced buyouts would be slightly better then buying debt from Germany or France.  There would be a lot of variety of course some would lose while some people got lucky and made big bucks but I'm just saying that in general things averaged out to slight profit (but less then many other investments) for post crisis purchases and big loss for pre crisis purchases.  I dont believe any comprehensive study has been made of the subject.

There definitely was a feeling of obligation that exerted a huge burden on Greece.  I am strongly of the opinion the repayment was pursued too zealously.  But to the extent that there was any extortion it happened from governments and government entities like the ECB and the repayment terms insisted on by France and Germany.

[Vilanat]

Iran's main PR problem with nuclear stuff is one of its own making, cause of their Hezbollah and their statements of Israel's destruction. 
I'd think turning their holy land into a nuclear wasteland is the last thing the religious fundamentalists would want...

Except the lands of israel is mentioned very little in their holy books (Jerusalem not even once). let's say that if Iran wanted to demolish israel they would have better backing in the quran than the opposition who might maintain its a holy muslim land and should be spared.

And religious fundamentalists have proven times and times again they have no problem destroying holy sites even if they are from their own religion. no need to open history books since we got a live presentation all over the middle east

Also, Iran "PR" problems is not confined to hezbollah and israel. a recent example can be this or this. Iran was and still is a fundamental imperialistic entity, except its too weak to actually do it openly and directly.

@Yemen/Houthis:  They are helping a minority population/freedom fighters break the yoke of an oppressive regime in Yemen, while the Saudi is trying to keep the current regime in power.
@ISIS destroying holy sites: They are actually just destroying blasphemous stuff that don't actually belong at the holy site.  Ya know, just clearing the place of graffiti.

  Its how you frame it.

I don't have any response for the others.

And how does this interpretation changes anything?

[Owlbread]

I know Israel is in the Eurovision song contest but surely Iranian/Yemeni/Israeli relations are a matter for the Middle Eastern Thread?

[lijacote]

Blaming this or that bank or this or that debtor is missing the forest for the trees. Finance capital is taking away national economic sovereignty, it is ruining lives (which is why I protest talking of economic sanctions and economic power as nonviolent) which is becoming increasingly apparent to SYRIZA. They can not fight the IMF and the extended troika with their relation to the EU/€ as it is, and parliaments have limited power as it is when contrasted with global capitalism (which is why I disagree with parliamentarists/reformists, or people who think the parliament can resolve class struggle). This leaves them in a bind as they were rather strongly of the opinion and attitude that they should stay in the EU and in the euro. I am hoping that they'll hold a referendum on this matter and resolve the flawed mandate that way, and that they'll leave the EU, the euro, and show that national powers can oppose austerity and the troika --- not least because it seems that Finland (my nation of residence) is also under the threat of economic intervention.

[GreatJustice]

General election tomorrow, polls open at 07:00 and close at 22:00. I sincerely hope all UK-based Baywatchers exercise their franchise.

My money is on Labour winning a plurality of the vote. Actually, I'd be willing to bet money on a Labour-SNP coalition.

[mainiac]

Blaming this or that bank or this or that debtor is missing the forest for the trees.

I didn't miss, that I was answering a different question.  Also it's inconsistent fluff and not actual economic analysis.  But mostly I was answering a different question.

[smjjames]

I know Israel is in the Eurovision song contest but surely Iranian/Yemeni/Israeli relations are a matter for the Middle Eastern Thread?

Except that there really isn't one, at least not one that is active.

[Sergarr]

Provided you possess a sufficient degree of nonviolent power you can threaten nations with things other than destruction. Economic sanctions can be a very big threat to a nation that isn't self sufficient, religious bodies can be influential in some nations since religious causes can stir up a lot of unrest.

Christ on a cracker, do people not realize that beneficial as well as destructive relationships exist?  There's a reason that the Soviet Union had global power projection while Russian power barely extends into it's borders.  The Soviet Union actually offered people something positive in terms of a cultural and economic movement.  Sure it eventually went bust but it was something people could get behind and the Soviets backed up their movement with economic resources.

China today has it's military reach stop a few kilometers past it's borders but the promise of Chinese investment makes head's turn on the other side of the earth...

I guess that's a language problem, then - in Russian, "beneficial power" doesn't really exists as anything than an oxymoron.

A mutually beneficial relationship in Russian language can only happen between equals... about the same thing happens in Russia, too.

[Helgoland]

I know Israel is in the Eurovision song contest but surely Iranian/Yemeni/Israeli relations are a matter for the Middle Eastern Thread?

Except that there really isn't one, at least not one that is active.

The Middle East is Europe's back yard anyway, so the discussion belongs here

General election tomorrow, polls open at 07:00 and close at 22:00. I sincerely hope all UK-based Baywatchers exercise their franchise.

My money is on Labour winning a plurality of the vote. Actually, I'd be willing to bet money on a Labour-SNP coalition.

You're on - what will it be? Five bucks or a beer?

(which is why I disagree with parliamentarists/reformists, or people who think the parliament can resolve class struggle)

This sounds socialist...

Blaming this or that bank or this or that debtor is missing the forest for the trees. Finance capital is taking away national economic sovereignty

I am hoping that [...] they'll leave the EU, the euro, and show that national powers can oppose austerity and the troika

... while this sounds nationalist. Would it be appropriate to call you a Nationalist Socialist?

[Sergarr]

Would it be appropriate for me to call myself that, too?

Why did Nazis have had to ruin so many cool-looking things, like black uniforms, sun symbols and lightning emblems?