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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1784656 times)

Bohandas

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14340 on: January 15, 2015, 03:10:25 am »

There's nothing dangerous about GMO plants and GMO products should not have to carry special warning labels on that basis.

HOWEVER, anything created by Monsanto should be required to carry a large black box warning reading "Warning! Monsanto!" next to a skull and crossbones and a stylized representation of a rich businessman consuming the flesh of a farmer

EDIT:
Perhaps there should also be a picture of a businessman eating a scientist's brain
« Last Edit: January 15, 2015, 03:16:15 am by Bohandas »
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14341 on: January 15, 2015, 03:20:36 am »

Well, it depends on the GMO really. I think Bt plants for example shouldn't be grown, because their use is going to create resistance to the Bt toxin, making it useless as a pest-control product (Organic farmers among others use sprays of Bt bacteria as a pesticide). Monsanto is, in effect, seizing a public good (Bt-sensible insects) for private gain.
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14342 on: January 15, 2015, 04:03:16 am »

The same argument could be applied to those organic farmers, though.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14343 on: January 15, 2015, 04:14:04 am »

Not really, because they tends to use it sparingly, in response to pest infections, rather than just constantly produce relatively low level of Bt toxin all over. It's the same difference as between feeding your pigs antibiotics all the time and taking a course of antibiotics to cure someone from a disease.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14344 on: January 15, 2015, 04:36:55 am »

Actually, the way the Bt-toxin works is that it only activates if it's eaten. The problem is not that it's a constant low level background, but that it's too effective. Normally, the Bt-resistant insects would mate with non- Bt resistant insects, and the gene would thus disappear.

However, farmers are neglecting the thing that tells them that they should plant a few sacrificial areas to allow the population of non-Bt resistant insects to exist, which results in a Bt-resistant population.

I honestly don't know why we don't just grow things hydroponically and save ourselves the pesticide/herbicide cash, but oh well. Hydroponics could probably automate the entire process and cut out humans, too.
Expensive. Ridiculously so.
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Erkki

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14345 on: January 15, 2015, 10:04:54 am »

I think this belongs here rather than in Russia Watch: https://mh17.correctiv.org/english/

That one looks interesting. I hope I'll have the time to go through it all soon.
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Sinistar

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14346 on: January 15, 2015, 11:34:41 am »

I'm late and slightly offtopic but it seem only polite to answer the question(s). I've actually started yesterday evening but realized my would-be post lacks some serious cohesion. And actually I don't feel like re-writing it even now, so here's a short version.

Well, do you also oppose privatization of fertilizer, tractor, fuel? They're all agricultural input.
I'm not sure if you are just honestly asking about this or if this is a bit of a tongue-in-check question, but I'll go with the former.

Short answer - no. From my point of view (note: that is from small-scale, non-profit farmer/grower's view) the seeds are such basic products you simply can't go around with them being under the patent. You are perfectly capable of working the field tractor- and fuel-less and fertilizer can either be ignored at worst or made at home from various organic by-products. With seeds under the patent, the biggest concern I have is the ability to be self-sufficient is severely jeopardized.

You know, breeders already have something like a patent system. Nobody's ever complained about that.
You'll have to explain with examples what you mean by that, sorry I don't get it right now.
It's exactly what it says on the tin. Plant patent act, Plant breeders' rights.
Ah, I understand now, my confusion was purely due to language constraints. When I think of "breeder", the word associated with it in my native language means in most if not all cases strictly someone who breeds animals. I wasn't aware this can also be used for plants. The more I know.
To comment on your links - I do find those things a bit worrying, but not as much as GMO-related patents. I can expand on that further, if you are interested.

But you know what, you can dismiss what I said above, I think Frumple pretty much sums it up better than I ever could.
I'd... personally, I'd probably draw a line at any staple crops, especially if they weren't tailor made for very specific, very extreme environments. Luxury-ish crops -- like most fruit and probably many vegetables, as well as anything really exotic -- would be okay to patent, but stuff that could -- does -- have the potential for massive impact, especially in less developed areas... shit really should be public domain. Trademark a specific way of branding it, maybe -- that's going to net you plenty of profit in and of itself -- but keep the making of it open and readily available.

There's some scientific advancements we as a species really need to get off our asses, point to, and say, no, this is not going to be sacrificed for greed. Many food related advancements strongly fall under that umbrella, imo. If GMO et al is really doing as well as its proponents say, most it should be being spread as far and as wide as we can manage, not being parceled out for profit. And if the law is getting in the way of that, the law probably needs a pitchfork shoved up its bum.
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14347 on: January 15, 2015, 12:02:31 pm »

Well, do you also oppose privatization of fertilizer, tractor, fuel? They're all agricultural input.
I'm not sure if you are just honestly asking about this or if this is a bit of a tongue-in-check question, but I'll go with the former.

Short answer - no. From my point of view (note: that is from small-scale, non-profit farmer/grower's view) the seeds are such basic products you simply can't go around with them being under the patent. You are perfectly capable of working the field tractor- and fuel-less and fertilizer can either be ignored at worst or made at home from various organic by-products. With seeds under the patent, the biggest concern I have is the ability to be self-sufficient is severely jeopardized.
If Sheb was asking in a tongue-in-cheek manner, I'll ask the same question without it.
All seeds currently not under patent will remain so, Sinistar, that's how patents work. To expand your argument: You are perfectly capable of working without GMO-enhanced seeds, since normal ones are availible. (And before you start talking about GMO contamination and patents, remember that there's been no verdict on such a matter.)

To comment on your links - I do find those things a bit worrying, but not as much as GMO-related patents. I can expand on that further, if you are interested.
Please do, this discussion seems rather productive! Maybe we should migrate to another thread though to avoid cluttering this one. Then again, that thread would probably be spammed to hell and back...
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Sinistar

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14348 on: January 15, 2015, 12:26:35 pm »

To expand your argument: You are perfectly capable of working without GMO-enhanced seeds, since normal ones are availible. (And before you start talking about GMO contamination and patents, remember that there's been no verdict on such a matter.)

To comment on your links - I do find those things a bit worrying, but not as much as GMO-related patents. I can expand on that further, if you are interested.
Please do, this discussion seems rather productive! Maybe we should migrate to another thread though to avoid cluttering this one. Then again, that thread would probably be spammed to hell and back...
Ah yes, I knew I should have written a longer, more thorough answer. Yes, I am perfectly aware of your counter-argument in the first part and it is in fact perfectly sensible. It was one of the arguments I was brainstorming around, trying to come up with something worth of discussion, but my brains refused to move past the pretty weak "but what if GMO suddenly become the ONLY seeds available..." Give me a day to really kick-start my brain cells and I'll either post longer version here or send it via PM if curent topic changes in the mean time.
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Sinistar

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14349 on: January 15, 2015, 04:58:43 pm »

Ok, I suggest putting GMO discussion on hold for a while because things are getting a bit heated in Belgium.

Two suspects dead after anti-terror operation in eastern Belgium, more raids going on in Brussels region.

Sheb an co, any up-to-date info?
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Everything is an instrument if you hit it the right way.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14350 on: January 15, 2015, 05:33:18 pm »

I spent my day locked in studying, so this is actually the first time I hear about this.
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Bohandas

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14351 on: January 15, 2015, 08:36:32 pm »

...organic farmers...

Organic BS isn't equal, it's WORSE because it's based largely on superstition.

Monsanto may be a consortium of cutthroat scumbags, but at least they're honest and well-informed cutthroat scumbags and don't buy into new-age bullshit.
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14352 on: January 15, 2015, 08:42:42 pm »

There are organic farmers who are non-crazy. There are lots of new age-y, esoteric- and antroposophy-loving folks in that group, though.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14353 on: January 15, 2015, 08:54:07 pm »

Organic food is also consistently rated as having superior taste, but that's at least partially placebo.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #14354 on: January 15, 2015, 09:04:38 pm »

Organic food is also consistently rated as having superior taste, but that's at least partially placebo.

...I'm almost certain that that's entirely placebo, but nonetheless.
I've never seen any hard studies, but there's nothing unusual about the prospect that a food plant raised in different conditions ultimately having different taste. It is entirely possible that organic farming does, in fact, produce food with stronger or superior taste.
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