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[smjjames]

What do you mean by one of the least solidaire society?

[RedKing]

I'm going to hazard a guess that he means one of the least cohesive, culturally. Which is wrong. Albeit, our cultural cohesion lies mostly in our shared, manufactured pop culture. Stuff like American Idol and Lost and big blockbuster action films are the thick, Velveeta-like binder that holds us together. That, and hating Congress.

[LordSlowpoke]

One of the problems, Baffler, is that people seem to not realise how vital immigration is to the economy. They see immigrants and think 'I COULD HAVE HAD HIS JOB!'

No, you couldn't, because you don't want his job. You want a job that pays more that you have to do less in. Lots of businesses have said the immigrants are the ones that work the hardest.

Also, NHS needs immigrant doctors else there'd be an even worse shortage.

why exactly is the solution to the problem of a shortage of doctors to import doctors from somewhere else

it's stopgap as hell, when these die off you still will be left with not enough domestic doctors, do you plan to import doctors forever?

instead of saying "hey let's get doctors from somewhere else" you could say "hey how do we educate enough people to be doctors" but that's too much effort is it

It's not a stopgap, it can work long-term (provided the numbers don't drop, but that can happen internally too). I mean, yes, getting more doctors from Britain would be good, but you can't force people into being doctors.

if it can be helped, you should never rely on imports of important things, they can be a supplement but you're setting yourself big time by deciding they can replace your production

market goes crash and boom you're shit outta healthcare

i admit, it'd take quite a peculiar scenario for the doctors to just dry up, but we have thousands if not millions of seemingly impossible things that actually happened behind us as a race

and no, you can't force people to be doctors, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that maybe you could find out why people became doctors in the first place and amplify that so more people actually decide to go on that path

spinning some media to say "doctors are awesome, be a doctor today" would go a long way, considering how good the west is at spinning media

[Phmcw]

No unions, no benefits, very recent and limited public heatlcare,... Generally speaking, Americans don't seems to care about each other. Which is comprehensible, you have very little in common.

Hence all the renowned foreign doctors, right?

Yeah, all those ...

[LordSlowpoke]

Well, if the numbers of foreign doctors starts to drop significantly, we're not going to be the only nation in trouble.

yes, but we're talking about yours right now

it's not like other nations being in trouble makes your troubles all fine and well does it?

[RedKing]

No unions, no benefits, very recent and limited public heatlcare,... Generally speaking, Americans don't seems to care about each other. Which is comprehensible, you have very little in common.

Oh, that. That has far less to do with any cultural affinity (or supposed lack thereof), and much more to do with a persistent streak of Calvinist thought in American politics that basically comes down to "bad shit happens to bad people, good shit happens to good people". Therefore, why spend money on the sick and poor when they obviously deserve it?

Combined with the myth of the American " rags to riches" story which says all poor people need to succeed is hard work. Therefore, continuing entrenched poverty is poor people being lazy.

....we're kinda fucked up that way...

[LordSlowpoke]

Well, if the numbers of foreign doctors starts to drop significantly, we're not going to be the only nation in trouble.

yes, but we're talking about yours right now

it's not like other nations being in trouble makes your troubles all fine and well does it?

No, but even if WE produced an awful lot of doctors, we'd still be affected. High demand, low amount of doctors globally. They'd end up all over the world.

which is still a net positive outcome, because while your amount of doctors will be smaller it can be expected that you aren't as affected by the shortage (you're a source, after all) and you're receiving remittances from all the emigrants, assuming there is anywhere to send the remittances to - meaning, even if you're still troubled on the healthcare front, at the least your economy is getting a handy boost

[Phmcw]

No unions, no benefits, very recent and limited public heatlcare,... Generally speaking, Americans don't seems to care about each other. Which is comprehensible, you have very little in common.

Oh, that. That has far less to do with any cultural affinity (or supposed lack thereof), and much more to do with a persistent streak of Calvinist thought in American politics that basically comes down to "bad shit happens to bad people, good shit happens to good people". Therefore, why spend money on the sick and poor when they obviously deserve it?

Combined with the myth of the American " rags to riches" story which says all poor people need to succeed is hard work. Therefore, continuing entrenched poverty is poor people being lazy.

....we're kinda fucked up that way...

I German are calvinist too. If you see someone dying in the street and you don't act it's because you think he's not "one of us". That's pretty much how humans works. No way American would let detroit like it is if they were actually a nation.

[smjjames]

Maybe you'd like to come over and fix Detroits problems?

A large part of the problem is political and I don't know if the Mayor of Berlin can mess around with the issues that the Mayor of Munich (or Dublin, or any German city) has, but it's not like NYC can decide things for Detroit, it just doesn't work that way.

Also, if you really want to look at a city that's in the hole, look at Denver, not Detroit.

[Phmcw]

Maybe you'd like to come over and fix Detroits problems?

Easy, give me money. There are a few tricks that always work, it's not exactly a secret.

Build schools, enforce the law, enrich the environment. It'll take about 50 years but will be continuous progress.

About the mayor, there's nothing a competent anti-corruption force cannot handle.

[smjjames]

Maybe you'd like to come over and fix Detroits problems?

Easy, give me money. There are a few tricks that always work, it's not exactly a secret.

Build schools, enforce the law, enrich the environment. It'll take about 50 years but will be continuous progress.

About the mayor, there's nothing a competent anti-corruption force cannot handle.

Fixing the schools and enriching the environment would be useful for the whole country. Again, the problem is to a good extent, political.

[Phmcw]

Everything in America scream to me that America isn't a nation and that the only thing that hold the country together is propaganda.

No nation-wide solidarity movement, cops unwilling to take risk/routinely using exessive force, lack of empathy toward the poors, lethal force seen as a reasonable way to defend one's property, ... all that is, to me, cause by your multiculturalism. Why? Because empathy is linked to the belife of belonging in the same "goup".

[smjjames]

Everything in America scream to me that America isn't a nation and that the only thing that hold the country together is propaganda.

No nation-wide solidarity movement, cops unwilling to take risk/routinely using exessive force, lack of empathy toward the poors, lethal force seen as a reasonable way to defend one's property, ... all that is, to me, cause by your multiculturalism. Why? Because empathy is linked to the belife of belonging in the same "goup".

Belonging to the same 'goop'?

I feel like lashing out at you (not in a flamey way), but I'm going to hold my tongue here.

[Sheb]

Well, the picture is not as bleak as you paint it, but again, the US is not a nation-state, so it's normal. And Canada seems to do much better, despite the same migratory history.

[smjjames]

Well, the picture is not as bleak as you paint it, but again, the US is not a nation-state, so it's normal. And Canada seems to do much better, despite the same migratory history.

Exactly, that's the whole point of the conversation about multiculturalism, we're as much a nation-state as Australia, New Zealand, or the rest of the Americas. The Latin American countries have a Spanish (and Portuguese in the case of Brazil) descent just as much as Canada and the US have an English descent, but descent alone does not make them nation-states.