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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1779878 times)

scriver

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10815 on: September 13, 2014, 08:22:08 am »

Because, you know, the French are complaining about German dominance too.

Where are you from, anyway, scriver?

That everybody is complaining does not make everybody's complaints equally un-/founded. France has had large amount of legislation custom tailored to suit it's needs and wants, and is generally on of the most influential countries in the EU. When they're complaining, they're complaining about not being to decide everything.

And I am still Swedish, as I have stated and mentioned dozens of times before and written in my profile.

All measures have to be agreed upon democratically, you know... In fact federalization would lessen German influence.

You are assuming "democratically" automatically means it's good democracy. Having people who aren't from your country, don't give a crap about your people, don't know a single bit about your customs, laws, and culture, and first and foremost whose election process you can't even influence decide over you is not any kind of democracy that's worth a damn. It is very much a "two wolves and a sheep" kind of situation. And that's not even getting into the whole of any Europe-wide government being too distanced to properly and responsibly govern the whole of Europe and the problems with corruption and lobbying in Brussels.


Germans only dominate Europe because no one try to oppose the Übermutti and the European institutions themselves are too weak. Euro-federalism is the answer, not the cause, of German power.

Oh, yeah. The answer to an uncaring and biased government is obviously allotting more power to that government.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10816 on: September 13, 2014, 08:26:09 am »

The EU is not a remote government. The parliament cannot even initiate bills on its own. That is to say, the council has to decide on everything, and who is sitting on the council? Your own, democratically elected government. Yeah. So if your government does a bod job of representing your interest (or, as often happens, vote for unpopular stuff and then blame the EU for it), you cannot blame the EU for it.

Euro-federalism, as in giving more power to the European Parliament would make the whole process more transparent and democratic, even if the EU doesn't get new powers.
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

martinuzz

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10817 on: September 13, 2014, 08:58:45 am »

can i have some sources on the "benefiting big corporations" and "breaking down social security" parts tia

- the 'strict budgetary discipline' rule has forced us to cut back on funding, as well as privatize healthcare, welfare, culture and education in a way that's more dramatic than what Thatcher did to England, all because a handful of not democratically elected suits in Brussels decided that we must (Even though 64% of us said NO! in the referendum)

- Some of our national prides, like a mail service that always delivered within a day, a railway service that was both punctual as well as affordable, have been obligatory moved from national control to the free European market, resulting in what is now an untrustworthy mail service (mail regularily gets lost alltogether), a rail system that is plagued by many delays, scandalized by lawsuits against european contractors that cannot deliver what they promised, and has become unaffordable for the poor (for example, I know a lot of people nowadays who want to use their democratic right to protest, but can't, because they cannot even afford the train ticket to the Hague / Amsterdam).

- we don't own any commercial aircraft anymore as a country, since KLM was sold to Air France

- the discrepancy between the poorest 10% of population and the richest 10% is skyrocketing, our country is starting to look like a banana republic. In fact in just 20 years, the numbers of homeless in the larger cities have literally increased more than hunderdfold. In my city (of 200000 inhabitants) there were 3 homeless people 20 years ago. At the moment, we have 550, not counting the Bulgarian and Romanian street beggars who appeared at all our supermarket entrances ever since EU opened the borders. Before the EU, we did not have, or need 'Food Banks'. As of now, it is estimated 10% of our population depends on Food Banks to provide them with enough food to sustain themselves.

- youth unemployment has risen. Not in the least because of open borders, combined with no legislation to force employers to give the same benefits to eastern European workers as they have to give to locals. National Labour Union agreements do not apply to EU migrant labourers, so even though their base wage is the same, they are much cheaper for employers.

-I could go on.

For a recent example, on the benefitiing of large corporations, there's the ISDS, which EU politicians want to ratify into the TTIP (Trans Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership). In short, the Investor to State Dispute Settlement states that if a company feels that any national policy damages their profits, a tribunal will be formed (from their own ranks) that assesses these damages, and if ISDS is included in the treaty, force the state to pay these damages. This whole procedure will see no democratic component, or transparency, it's all behind closed doors. It quite literary sets corporations above the law. An ISDS tribunal can even determine whether a country does not violate the 'right to a stable investing climate' for a corporation. Public interest is not considered a factor.
 
The ISDS is already included in some other global trade agreements. It forced Ecuador pay 1.77 billion dollars to Occidental Petroleum, after the company decided to leave the country, instead of complying with new laws to prevent the Amazon river being further polluted by oil spills.
Imagine. "We want to continue spilling oil. Since you won't let us, we'll leave, and make you pay all costs for it"
It also might soon force Germany to pay 3.7 billion euros to the Swedish energy megacorporation Vattenfall too, because Germany abolished using nuclear energy.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 09:10:27 am by martinuzz »
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

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http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10818 on: September 13, 2014, 09:06:23 am »

You know that most of these things aren't because of the EU, or because of "unelected suits in Brussels", right?
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
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martinuzz

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10819 on: September 13, 2014, 09:13:49 am »

You know that most of these things aren't because of the EU, or because of "unelected suits in Brussels", right?

How is being forced by the EU to privatize and cut funding not because of the EU?

Also, this +1

You are assuming "democratically" automatically means it's good democracy. Having people who aren't from your country, don't give a crap about your people, don't know a single bit about your customs, laws, and culture, and first and foremost whose election process you can't even influence decide over you is not any kind of democracy that's worth a damn. It is very much a "two wolves and a sheep" kind of situation. And that's not even getting into the whole of any Europe-wide government being too distanced to properly and responsibly govern the whole of Europe and the problems with corruption and lobbying in Brussels.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 09:15:23 am by martinuzz »
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10820 on: September 13, 2014, 09:15:01 am »

I like how people blame EU for making decisions when every single country in EU has a right of veto.
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martinuzz

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10821 on: September 13, 2014, 09:15:50 am »

Is that veto right really an option, you think? No country wants to see it's credit rating go to CCC overnight. Held hostage by capital.

On democracy and EU.
I regard having a Constitution an essential component of any democratic form of power. The EU has no Constitution. It was put up for vote in a referendum, and voted out.
Some time after, a completely undemocratic process ratified a Treaty that was essentially the same as the voted out Constitution.
Ever since, we have had to bear the whips and scorns of a neo-liberal plague that even has the insolence of proclaiming it's actions democratic.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 09:27:23 am by martinuzz »
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

scriver

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10822 on: September 13, 2014, 09:31:21 am »

The EU is not a remote government. The parliament cannot even initiate bills on its own. That is to say, the council has to decide on everything, and who is sitting on the council? Your own, democratically elected government. Yeah. So if your government does a bod job of representing your interest (or, as often happens, vote for unpopular stuff and then blame the EU for it), you cannot blame the EU for it.

Euro-federalism, as in giving more power to the European Parliament would make the whole process more transparent and democratic, even if the EU doesn't get new powers.

Why would my government have any more to say about anything because it is sitting on the council? And how exactly is the council not EU?

And no, the solution would to solve the issue of EU legislating over the heads of individual countries, not moving the power to do so from one undemocratic instance of the EU to another.


You know that most of these things aren't because of the EU, or because of "unelected suits in Brussels", right?

How is being forced by the EU to privatize and cut funding not because of the EU?

And regardless of whether the EU does technically force privatizing or not, it is still the kind of neoliberal (neocon to our American readers) philosophy that's being pushed in/out of Brussels.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10823 on: September 13, 2014, 10:50:59 am »

The EU is not a remote government. The parliament cannot even initiate bills on its own. That is to say, the council has to decide on everything, and who is sitting on the council? Your own, democratically elected government. Yeah. So if your government does a bod job of representing your interest (or, as often happens, vote for unpopular stuff and then blame the EU for it), you cannot blame the EU for it.

Euro-federalism, as in giving more power to the European Parliament would make the whole process more transparent and democratic, even if the EU doesn't get new powers.
Why would my government have any more to say about anything because it is sitting on the council? And how exactly is the council not EU?
The Council of the European union, operates, de facto, by unanimous Consensus. So if something is passed by the Council , it was agreed upon by your country.

For example, in 2008, over the 150 Council descisions there were the grand total of 8 against votes.

Quote
And no, the solution would to solve the issue of EU legislating over the heads of individual countries, not moving the power to do so from one undemocratic instance of the EU to another.
Please explain how none of these institutions are democratic. You can throw buzzwords all you want. So far, your argument is little more than: "I don't like the EU."

Honestly, it seems like all of you have the idea that there's some kind of mythical, mysterious entity in Bruxelles that controls everything. There really isn't. The EU is nothing more than your politicians. And obviously, they blame the EU for the decisions they themselves made.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 11:14:09 am by 10ebbor10 »
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mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10824 on: September 13, 2014, 10:58:39 am »

The ISDS is already included in some other global trade agreements. It forced Ecuador pay 1.77 billion dollars to Occidental Petroleum, after the company decided to leave the country, instead of complying with new laws to prevent the Amazon river being further polluted by oil spills.
Imagine. "We want to continue spilling oil. Since you won't let us, we'll leave, and make you pay all costs for it"

It is generally a very, very bad idea to decide that property rights and contract laws dont apply to assholes.  I hope you can see for yourself why this is the case.  Ecuador was perfectly capable of enforcing it's laws and indeed changing it's laws to make them more restrictive without engaging in unlawful seizure but decided to go the seizure route instead.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10825 on: September 13, 2014, 11:10:11 am »

ISDS is something different though. First it's a private court, with no democratic oversight of any kind. Secondly, a country can be sued even without seizure. For example, Mexico had to pay quite a lot of cash to various American company after slapping a duty on HFCS for health purpose. Third, it can force a country to change its law, as in the previous HFCS example.
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

mainiac

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10826 on: September 13, 2014, 11:35:51 am »

It's an international settlement body.  It enforces violations of contracts.  It's entire purpose is to do so.  Perhaps you think we shouldn't have such bodies but Mexico and Ecuador freely accepted these terms before hand.  They were free to leave afterwards and Ecuador did just that.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10827 on: September 13, 2014, 11:48:26 am »

Your point? Sure, I know they accepted it, doesn't mean it doesn't sucks and isn't a terrible idea overall.
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10828 on: September 13, 2014, 12:08:33 pm »

Meanwhile the second humanitarian convoy has already returned to Russia after emptying all of their 245 trucks in Lugansk.
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scriver

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #10829 on: September 13, 2014, 12:12:22 pm »

The Council of the European union, operates, de facto, by unanimous Consensus. So if something is passed by the Council , it was agreed upon by your country.


While technically true, this says nothing about why they agreed. Having the ability to disagree does not mean a small country have the possibility to disagree. In a system designed around bargaining-until-concensus smaller, less powerful nations with less to bargain with will inevitably always get the bad end of the deal.


Quote
Please explain how none of these institutions are democratic. You can throw buzzwords all you want. So far, your argument is little more than: "I don't like the EU."

I used "undemocratic" in the sense of meaning "not good democracy". I'm not saying it's "not democratic". I'm saying it's bad democracy.

Quote
Honestly, it seems like all of you have the idea that there's some kind of mythical, mysterious entity in Bruxelles that controls everything. There really isn't. The EU is nothing more than your politicians. And obviously, they blame the EU for the decisions they themselves made.
 

Do you want to talk down to me some more, of can the rest of us continue now?
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