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[smjjames]

Has there ever been a revolution (that wasn't just an armed rebellion) where every protester got paid by the day?

You'd think agitation in general would be the main weapon of the supposed outsiders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine#Anti-Maidan_and_paid_protesters That's the Russian side though.

[Baffler]

You'd have to people very large amounts of money to camp in Kiev through the winter while enduring political persecution and to keep quiet about being bought. I think we'd have seen a notable spike in US debt if that was the case.

That's what the black budget is for. It was 56.8 billion dollars last year, God only knows what it is now, and not even He knows what they spent it on.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

The best thing that can happen right now is, I think , a siccions of Ukraine. Let the Russian side be Russian, and make the richest side as European as possible.

Isn't the eastern side (the russian side) the part with the economic engine? Or at least a good part of it.

[black humor mode] Not for long...  [/black humor mode]

To be more serious, Donetsk and Luhansk regions do contribute a large chunk of Ukrainian GDP but currently occupied zone is not that important comparing to the rest of region. Should the currently occupied area go away their GDP per capita will by very low even without taking war damage and severed economic ties into account.

That is a reason why they will go and try to take city of Mariupol. If not to take it for themselves then to deny Ukraine very important industrial center, port and some nice arable land around it. 

[10ebbor10]

The best thing that can happen right now is, I think , a siccions of Ukraine. Let the Russian side be Russian, and make the richest side as European as possible.

Isn't the eastern side (the russian side) the part with the economic engine? Or at least a good part of it.

[black humor mode] Not for long...  [/black humor mode]

I don't think you need to use that much black humor. IIRC, quite a bit of that Industrial power is ex-soviet Industry, which will not be able to survive in the European business climate. Especially not if Russia embargoes it. (Majority of Ukranian trade goes to Russia).

Now, in the case that the rebels steal the Industry and join Russia, the Industry will also come under pressure by part of an increasingly isolated Russia. I don't think Russia is going to expend much money and resources sustaining an Industry that isn't part of it's heartland.

On a side note, it seems like Putin is playing the long game with his food embargo. Seeing as food is banned, but agricultural machinery and seeds aren't, it's probable that Putin intends to ensure that Russia's agricultural sector soon is capable of sustaining the country.

Not going to happen from one day or the other, but it might soon.

[Erkki]

Dunno. EU and US put sanctions on Russian elite and major corporations... While Russia sanctions the wallets of its own people by banning food imports.

[Sheb]

To be honest, it's also hurting European food producers. Belgian pear producers just asked (and got) the right to kill 30% of their crops to prevent prices crashing too much.

[Helgoland]

it kinda shows that he's preparing for a big war, though.

[Phmcw]

I can't decide whether you're being a conspiracy theorist or not, though there is the lobbying problem.

Also, you mispelled 'American' twice

It's not exactly a secret https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130415/03110122707/spain-admits-new-copyright-law-is-designed-to-keep-it-off-uss-naughty-list.shtml

For instance in the above and well documented case, US governement kept a list of "bad" countries" given by hollywood, whose copyright law weren't suitable for american interests.

The echelon project isn't a secret anymore, and there has been a recent scandal when we dicovered that every channel of communication of the greman governemnt were being recorded.

[Sheb]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

[smjjames]

I can't decide whether you're being a conspiracy theorist or not, though there is the lobbying problem.

Also, you mispelled 'American' twice

It's not exactly a secret https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130415/03110122707/spain-admits-new-copyright-law-is-designed-to-keep-it-off-uss-naughty-list.shtml

For instance in the above and well documented case, US governement kept a list of "bad" countries" given by hollywood, whose copyright law weren't suitable for american interests.

The echelon project isn't a secret anymore, and there has been a recent scandal when we dicovered that every channel of communication of the greman governemnt were being recorded.

Yeah, those corporate lobbys have way too much influence. While I'm sure there are some actual legitimate lobbys with good intent rather than corporate intent, the lobby system needs to be either removed or changed dramatically. Heck, maybe our entire government system needs a rewrite to remove that sort of influence.

Regarding the lobby stuff, I don't know whether other governments have stuff like that.

Edit: ECHELON and NSA sound more like survelliance and spying crossing the line in more ways than one than corporate stuff.

[mainiac]

It's not exactly a secret https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130415/03110122707/spain-admits-new-copyright-law-is-designed-to-keep-it-off-uss-naughty-list.shtml

Ah yes because the US promotes it's own industries in one regard, all of US national policy can be extrapolated from that point.  It's like how the US supports spaceflight so we can conclude that the entire American scientific agenda is putting people in orbit.

Is it just me or is the anti-american crowd getting lazier?

[Guardian G.I.]

The echelon project isn't a secret anymore, and there has been a recent scandal when we dicovered that every channel of communication of the greman governemnt were being recorded.

I think you're confusing ECHELON with PRISM, the American Internet surveillance system disclosed by Snowden.

[Sergarr]

It's not exactly a secret https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130415/03110122707/spain-admits-new-copyright-law-is-designed-to-keep-it-off-uss-naughty-list.shtml

Ah yes because the US promotes it's own industries in one regard, all of US national policy can be extrapolated from that point.

Is it just me or is the anti-american crowd getting lazier?

I see you have intentionally went around the lobbying issue. And international global surveillance.

Is it just me or is the pro-american crowd getting lazier?

[Loud Whispers]

Westerners are lazy, shocking new news development at 11

[scrdest]

What IS the echelon project? All I find is a company and conspiracy theories.

That's the thing they use to sift through your mails, calls and whatnot, I believe.