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[Mictlantecuhtli]

Is the government anti-Russian?
Part of the problem is that the government sworn in last week had little connection to Ukraine's more Russophile east. One of its first actions was to repeal a 2012 law recognising Russian as an official regional language. The decision was widely criticised across Ukraine.
Courtesy of the BBC, who are by no means 'RT propaganda.'

That's very neat and all, but:

The Ukrainian parliament did vote to repeal a 2012 law that allowed for more official languages in parts of the country. But the repeal vote was not signed into law by the Ukraine’s interim president.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2014/mar/05/fact-checkers-guide-events-ukraine/

Helps if you look into the issue.

Any other proof?

It's sorta like you're claiming we've repealed Obamacare because the house brought it up 300 times.

[mainiac]

What is it with you people that you assume I'm damning the Ukrainians? Bloody hell, can no one be reasonable?

I'm being perfectly reasonable.  I'm simply pointing out what is blindingly obvious at this point.

From the start the Russians have been uniformly unreasonable and dishonest.  They promised to respect the independence of Ukraine.  They promised they would not annex Crimea.  They promised there were no Russian troops in Crimea.  They promised they had no aims on the rest of Ukraine.  They promised they were not supplying arms to the rebels.  It's an established pattern.  It would have been rushing to judgement to have no doubt six months ago.  It's not rushing to judgement at this point.

Russia does not deserve special treatment.  When the US screws up it is criticized by Americans and Europeans.  When the US bombs a wedding in Afganistan the burden of proof wouldn't be on someone calling it a tragedy and gross neglect.  It's not unreasonable to hold Russia to the same standard that I would hold my own country to.

[Loud Whispers]

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2014/mar/05/fact-checkers-guide-events-ukraine/
Helps if you look into the issue.
Any other proof?

In the first parliamentary session, that tolerant 2012 law was revoked, which meant that the country reverted to the earlier legislation," said Keith Darden, a professor of international relations at American University.
The parliament voted on Sunday, March 2. By Wednesday, a backlash had begun, but not solely in Russian quarters. That day, the western city of Lviv, a center of Ukrainian nationalism, protested the repeal of the 2012 law and declared a day of speaking Russian. The government of Hungary slammed the move as well.
By Friday, Russian troops had taken positions at the airports and other key centers in Crimea.
On Sunday, the interim President Oleksandr Turchynov, stepped in and said he would not sign the repeal into law.
"He said that he wasn’t going to approve the repeal of the law," said Olga Oliker, an Eastern Europe security analyst at the RAND Corporation.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/mar/05/russia-today/russia-backed-american-news-network-offers-its-ow/
Helps if you look into the issue. It was already too late.

I'm being perfectly reasonable.  I'm simply pointing out what is blindingly obvious at this point.

You're being unreasonable when you start criticizing me for views I don't hold.

[mainiac]

You're being unreasonable when you start criticizing me for views I don't hold.

Back at you...

[Mictlantecuhtli]

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2014/mar/05/fact-checkers-guide-events-ukraine/
Helps if you look into the issue.
Any other proof?

In the first parliamentary session, that tolerant 2012 law was revoked, which meant that the country reverted to the earlier legislation," said Keith Darden, a professor of international relations at American University.
The parliament voted on Sunday, March 2. By Wednesday, a backlash had begun, but not solely in Russian quarters. That day, the western city of Lviv, a center of Ukrainian nationalism, protested the repeal of the 2012 law and declared a day of speaking Russian. The government of Hungary slammed the move as well.
By Friday, Russian troops had taken positions at the airports and other key centers in Crimea.
On Sunday, the interim President Oleksandr Turchynov, stepped in and said he would not sign the repeal into law.
"He said that he wasn’t going to approve the repeal of the law," said Olga Oliker, an Eastern Europe security analyst at the RAND Corporation.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/mar/05/russia-today/russia-backed-american-news-network-offers-its-ow/
Helps if you look into the issue. It was already too late.

On Sunday, the interim President Oleksandr Turchynov, stepped in and said he would not sign the repeal into law.

Yeah. That's what I literally just told you. What the hell are you trying to argue here? That Ukraine's parliament proposed a bill that failed? That's why Russians were in danger? I think you need to calm down and look at the things you're trying to argue, you just proved what I've been telling you.

[smjjames]

You two are arguing in circles and going nowhere.

[Loud Whispers]

You're being unreasonable when you start criticizing me for views I don't hold.

Back at you...

If I have, could you message me? Sincerely, I've missed most of what I've directed at you since every time I posted Mict had already posted 6 more posts about how much I loved Putin and was his personal spin doctor.

On Sunday, the interim President Oleksandr Turchynov, stepped in and said he would not sign the repeal into law.

Yeah. That's what I literally just told you.

The repeal passed parliament by Sunday and repealed the previous legislation. This is when the rioting began. Half a week later is when the president shut down the repeal. What do you not understand?

[smjjames]

Haven't we gone over this whole discussion before in one of the old Ukraine threads?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I'm not the one claiming that Ukraine was trying to stop Russians from having the rights they always did before the revolution.

The repeal passed parliament by Sunday and repealed the previous legislation. This is when the rioting began. Half a week later is when the president shut down the repeal. What do you not understand?

So.. he shouldn't have repealed the proposed bill?

The Ukrainian parliament did vote to repeal a 2012 law that allowed for more official languages in parts of the country. But the repeal vote was not signed into law by the Ukraine’s interim president.

You're confusing yourself, I'm not confused at all. The bill was a bad thing and stopped by the fascist president. I'm not sure you understand what you're even saying.

[Loud Whispers]

You two are arguing in circles and going nowhere.

I might as well repost my argument here before Mict swamps me again with another barrage of how I'm lying about the language legislation repealing:

I just don't get it though, I make these points:

• Sensationalist news does not make the knowledge of the news any better known, objective or reasoned. It does not produce a collected discussion, only sets the stage for conflict. Sensationalist news leads to the finer points being smothered by simpler fears:

  It's USA vs Russia! The cold war is back!
• Sensationalist news helps to drive down what should be getting that attention. Ironically enough in Western media the separatists who actually shot down the plane aren't getting nearly as much scrutiny as they should be getting because the media are framing it as being entirely Russia's fault or Ukraine's fault whilst the separatists themselves are unknown and the Gaza invasion is page-6 news and the Ukraine crisis itself is page-15 news.
• There are the viewpoints of Ukrainians, separatist-Ukrainians, pro-Russia militants, EU, Russia and the USA that need to be taken into account, to ignore them in favour of brushing it over as a conflict between the right and wrong would be to mean no one but the people who want conflict will profit.
• Conflict was inevitable because the current separatist regions hate this government just as much as euromaidan hated the last for various reasons one of which was to do with the bill Yanukovych passed which gave 10%+ minority represented languages a regional status on par with Ukrainian. I also mentioned that Russia was not fighting for the same reasons the separatists were, it was fighting for its own national interests [i.e. keeping its neighbours away from the EU and securing the black sea fleet].

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Haven't we gone over this whole discussion before in one of the old Ukraine threads?

Yeah, we have, which is why I'm probably being so snippy about it. We may as well be arguing over boot types.

[smjjames]

Daniel Sandford, BBC Moscow Correspondent

tweets: A Malaysian Colonel Mohd Sakri has arrived in Donetsk to collect the "black box" flight recorders

Not sure why they sent a colonel instead of a government official, but then again, they don't have an agency to specifically deal with crash investigations.

[Loud Whispers]

I'm not the one claiming that Ukraine was trying to stop Russians from having the rights they always did before the revolution.

They're Russian speaking Ukrainians and the sources you brought up and the sources I brought up both concur that one of the first things the Ukrainian parliament did was try and repeal the 'On the principles of the state language policy' and it was only after the separatists had already begun rioting and chipping away at Ukraine, after Russian troops had already started moving in that the bill was shot down by the President, who by now had seen what a colossal mistake this was.

So.. he shouldn't have repealed the proposed bill?

He essentially vetoed a repeal, he didn't repeal a bill. The parliament shouldn't have revoked it in the first place. They needed to gain the trust of the Russiaphones.

You're confusing yourself, I'm not confused at all. The bill was a bad thing and stopped by the fascist president. I'm not sure you understand what you're even saying.

I'm not sure you understand what you're saying.

We may as well be arguing over boot types.

You spent over a dozen posts on this whilst all I wanted to talk about was:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I just don't get it though, I make these points:

• Sensationalist news does not make the knowledge of the news any better known, objective or reasoned. It does not produce a collected discussion, only sets the stage for conflict. Sensationalist news leads to the finer points being smothered by simpler fears:

  It's USA vs Russia! The cold war is back!
• Sensationalist news helps to drive down what should be getting that attention. Ironically enough in Western media the separatists who actually shot down the plane aren't getting nearly as much scrutiny as they should be getting because the media are framing it as being entirely Russia's fault or Ukraine's fault whilst the separatists themselves are unknown and the Gaza invasion is page-6 news and the Ukraine crisis itself is page-15 news.
• There are the viewpoints of Ukrainians, separatist-Ukrainians, pro-Russia militants, EU, Russia and the USA that need to be taken into account, to ignore them in favour of brushing it over as a conflict between the right and wrong would be to mean no one but the people who want conflict will profit.
• Conflict was inevitable because the current separatist regions hate this government just as much as euromaidan hated the last for various reasons one of which was to do with the bill Yanukovych passed which gave 10%+ minority represented languages a regional status on par with Ukrainian. I also mentioned that Russia was not fighting for the same reasons the separatists were, it was fighting for its own national interests [i.e. keeping its neighbours away from the EU and securing the black sea fleet].

If you weren't enjoying this I honestly have no idea what goes on in your head.
I don't think I can make myself any clearer without just outright stating my views, so I might as well just outright state my views. I don't approve of Putin's actions, I condemn them. I don't think the Ukrainian government are fascists, they've spent enough time trying to fight the actual fascists that it is determinedly clear to anyone who's seen it that their government is not controlled by them. I am trying to point out there actually exists a distinction between Russia, the pro-Russia militants and the separatists. That is all. Thank you for your time.

Not sure why they sent a colonel instead of a government official, but then again, they don't have an agency to specifically deal with crash investigations.

They sent the highest ranking officer they could send without having to send a general, I suppose since it was a military strike they'd send an officer. Also, if they haven't specified, colonel is also a rank in the Malaysian air force as well as the army. They may have sent someone who has experience with air strikes to find any evidence personally.

[mainiac]

Perhaps the new ukrainian government did not understand that a fairly obscure change to the law would be such a flashpot issue?

It's perfectly understandable that russian speakers could arrive at a different opinion from the national government, triggering widescale protests.  The government then backs down because it sees the law is viewed as persecution in the east.  Surely if the law had received a second vote many of the same politicians who had been for it would have been against after seeing the protests.  They back down even though the law would be acceptable to a majority of the population because the minority feels so strongly on the issue.  Isn't this an example of the democratic process working successfully to protect minority rights?

[Loud Whispers]

Perhaps the new ukrainian government did not understand that a fairly obscure change to the law would be such a flashpot issue?

Well yeah, that's a safe assumption. But hindsight's a bitch.

Isn't this an example of the democratic process working successfully to protect minority rights?

Probably a poor example considering it was post-revolution into another revolution, it isn't a good democratic process until people don't feel the need to revolution.

Not sure why they sent a colonel instead of a government official, but then again, they don't have an agency to specifically deal with crash investigations.

They sent the highest ranking officer they could send without having to send a general, I suppose since it was a military strike they'd send an officer. Also, if they haven't specified, colonel is also a rank in the Malaysian air force as well as the army. They may have sent someone who has experience with air strikes to find any evidence personally.

Turns out he is both a government official and a colonel in the Malaysian airforce.
Full title: MKN principal assistant secrertary Col Mohd Sakri Hussain.
And he's done some disaster management before.
Seems like the right man for the job. Seems he was also promoted since 2013 from Leightenant Colonel to Colonel.