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[MetalSlimeHunt]

Nobody wants to start an economic war with Russia, and they have very good reasons for not wanting it. Russia controls a non-negligible portion of Earth's resources. Cutting off their economy from the rest of the world will have consequences all over, including in Ukraine.

Sanctions will come if Putin doesn't give people any other choice, but he's already overplayed his hand on this one. He'd have to be a great fool to keep this up.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Nobody wants to start an economic war with Russia

Then a real war will follow rather soon. I am reasonably sure about that


In fact I suspect that our new pro-Western president just does what Europe (read France and Germany) want to see. Gives up, because they need no confrontation with Russia. Realpolitic. I think it is very likely that the **** ceasefire is a Western idea and Poroshenko had no choice but agree.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Economic war has historically preceded military conflict plenty of times, and could here as well. Do not be so quick to throw away de-escalation.

Poroshenko agreed to a ceasefire because he doesn't want to die. No EU conspiracies required.

(And for the record, blaming your problems on "pro-Westerners" makes you sound a lot like the same kind of people who cheer Putin's name and ask him to do horrible things in the name of Russia.)

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I don't think that Pro-Western here is bad. Let's be honest, politicians of marginal countries(status that Ukraine is not ready to remove right now) are almost always more or less pro-someone. And Ukrainian president needs to balance between European, American and our own interests... because else we'll be alone against Russia. War that we can't win without ruining our country

[Loud Whispers]

POLISH MPS SLAGGING CAMERON

WILL SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CAMERONS? OH PLEASE! THINK OF THE CAMERONS!

[smjjames]

I wonder if that was an isolated incident? Besides, the rebels aren't one monolithic group, theres probably several factions.

You're rather pessimistic UR, but that's understandable given your countries history and current situation.

[Owlbread]

Ukraine and the West have already been sorely beaten in the Russian-instigated conflict. UR has every reason to be concerned and pessimistic - Russia has Ukraine by the balls, just like Georgia and Moldova. They may not be satellites but they're certainly slaves. Putin has completely outclassed us all.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The man who is rapidly becoming an international pariah is not outclassing anybody. This whole thing is going to bite back at him for a long time. The Western bloc gave peace a chance with the Russian bloc once the USSR dissolved, and these are the fruits of it. That mistake will not be made twice. Russia has some dark days coming, that much is certain.

[Owlbread]

The man who is rapidly becoming an international pariah is not outclassing anybody. This whole thing is going to bite back at him for a long time. The Western bloc gave peace a chance with the Russian bloc once the USSR dissolved, and these are the fruits of it. That mistake will not be made twice. Russia has some dark days coming, that much is certain.

"That mistake will not be made twice", "Russia has some dark days coming", what does this even mean? What can we do? Punish Russia through international sanctions? Undermine them every chance we get? Antagonise them even further? This is meaningless. There is nothing we can do that won't just make everything so much worse. If we antagonise Russia any more they'll build up a bloc of support to counter us and they'd get it - just look at the situation over Syria.

[LordSlowpoke]

just like at versailles after ww1 right, germany was forgiven of everything and helped back onto the world stage as a friend of the west as good as any other

cool chance giving m8

[Owlbread]

just like at versailles after ww1 right, germany was forgiven of everything and helped back onto the world stage as a friend of the west as good as any other

cool chance giving m8

The only way to truly pacify that surge of expansionist nationalism and ambition in Germany was to effectively flatten the country with artillery, bombings and invasion with some of the most atrocious examples of war rape known, then make the chief instigators of the Imperialist drive into the worst villains of the 20th century, both traumatising the German people and instilling a sense of national self-loathing and guilt that endures to this day.

The only way to truly pacify that surge of expansionist nationalism and ambition in Japan was to drop the most powerful bombs known to man on two of their cities, killing hundreds of thousands in three days and threatening them with what would have been one of the bloodiest invasions in history.

Tell me how these 20th century world-war analogies can lead to anything positive or constructive in relation to dealing with Russian expansionist nationalism and ambition in 2014?

[Sheb]

I agree with Owlbread. We can't kill Russia, and frankly, we don't want that. We need to show support for Putin's victims, but we also need to give Russia a path toward becoming a modern, respectful state.

[smjjames]

Well, it was either do a massive invasion of Japan which would be guaranteed to be difficult, bloody and result in a massive death toll, which we were really reluctant to do, or bomb them.

And yes I know many still died from the atomic bombs.

Also, the atrocities commited by the nazis don't exactly help either towards that, not that it condones any of the war crimes done by the allies.

[Helgoland]

I agree with Owlbread. We can't kill Russia, and frankly, we don't want that. We need to show support for Putin's victims, but we also need to give Russia a path toward becoming a modern, respectful state.

We can't kill Russia. We have to kill Putin's Russia, though - that's the only path to modernization that Russia has.

[XXSockXX]

just like at versailles after ww1 right, germany was forgiven of everything and helped back onto the world stage as a friend of the west as good as any other

cool chance giving m8

Are you being ironic? Because Versailles is a good example of what not to do.