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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1750343 times)

scriver

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3705 on: February 05, 2014, 05:09:13 am »

Yeah, clearly we're just doing it out of spite of Best Russia. All hail Putin, our Liberator!
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Love, scriver~

Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3706 on: February 05, 2014, 06:18:02 am »

Actually, I should have said Putin's government. I have nothing against Russian, or Russia as a nation.

anyway, you're right, it's stupid to look at the weather in downtown Sochi. I actually realized it soon after posting.

However, one point still stand: Russia poured huge amount of cash into the Sochi Olympics, making it the most expensive Olympic game ever (Second come China at 43 billions, but those were summer Olympics. The other games tend to cost less than $15 billions) and the results are far from stellar. Hotel with the lobby not build yet is not "less than stellar reception", not when that much money was poured in. It's a sign of corruption, embezzlement and widespread mismanagement.

Frankly, Russia deserve more than Putin.

P.S. Also, you haven't answered about security concern. Who wants to bet on the likelihood of an attack?

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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

XXSockXX

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3707 on: February 05, 2014, 06:34:23 am »

Yeah, the weather is not a concern. Competitions are often held outside the nominally hosting city.
But there is always a lot of criticism in the media around major sports events, there was a lot about Bejing and London too or now about the football world cups in Qatar and Brazil. I don't think the Sochi coverage is that excessive with criticism, if you substract the current political controversies.

Actually I think it is entirely wrong to think of Russia as the most despised country in the West, it is much rather like we hold Russia to higher standards because we expect them to become more like us at some point in time. Nobody is truly surprised by human rights violations in China or in Islamic countries, but Russia was expected to become more like the West after the end of the Cold War, just like most Eastern European countries did. That may be a wrong idea, but I think it plays a role in how Russia is perceived here.
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3708 on: February 05, 2014, 06:54:20 am »

Guardian's mindset is frozen in some indetermimate 1985 date. Russia is unfairly criticised at every turn and never did anything wrong, it is under threat from the West which is a united entity and always will be, North Korea really isn't all that bad, strong leadership is the answer, tractor factories are important, Belarus/Russia are the same, Stalin really wasn't all that bad, Russia has never colonised other nations only civilised them, Gaddafi really wasn't all that bad, Assad really isn't all that bad, all this stuff about LGBT rights is hooey.

I'm sure Owlbread can tell us why it's all Britain's fault.

Hey be fair! It could also be the Labor parties doing.  :P

No, it's very much our own fault. We bowed too often to the religious establishment,  Catholic, Presbyterian and Muslim. Those who abstained/voted no were from several parties including SNP and Labour.

Damn, I've started making a lot of spelling mistakes since I started posting from my phone. Sausage fingers.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 10:03:23 am by Owlbread »
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Funk

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3709 on: February 05, 2014, 12:15:51 pm »

What really get me going is that there are act that reinforce Abrahamic religions power, demanding that shops shut for there holy days.

If ever have a shop im going to take Wednesday off  in honer of woden , maybe i'll cyclical tru pagan gods and work Sunday just to wind up the lot of them. 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 01:09:09 pm by Funk »
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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Death to the false emperor a warhammer40k SG

10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3710 on: February 05, 2014, 12:29:49 pm »

Well, that's mainly the result of the way socialism developed in many countries.
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Steeled

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3711 on: February 05, 2014, 01:03:58 pm »

Guardian's mindset is frozen in some indetermimate 1985 date. Russia is unfairly criticised at every turn and never did anything wrong, it is under threat from the West which is a united entity and always will be, North Korea really isn't all that bad, strong leadership is the answer, tractor factories are important, Belarus/Russia are the same, Stalin really wasn't all that bad, Russia has never colonised other nations only civilised them, Gaddafi really wasn't all that bad, Assad really isn't all that bad, all this stuff about LGBT rights is hooey.

I'm sure Owlbread can tell us why it's all Britain's fault.

Hey be fair! It could also be the Labor parties doing.  :P

No, it's very much our own fault. We bowed too often to the religious establishment,  Catholic, Presbyterian and Muslim. Those who abstained/voted no were from several parties including SNP and Labour.

Damn, I've started making a lot of spelling mistakes since I started posting from my phone. Sausage fingers.
So you've finally shown your anti-tractor beliefs!
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3712 on: February 05, 2014, 01:08:46 pm »

Guardian's mindset is frozen in some indetermimate 1985 date. Russia is unfairly criticised at every turn and never did anything wrong, it is under threat from the West which is a united entity and always will be, North Korea really isn't all that bad, strong leadership is the answer, tractor factories are important, Belarus/Russia are the same, Stalin really wasn't all that bad, Russia has never colonised other nations only civilised them, Gaddafi really wasn't all that bad, Assad really isn't all that bad, all this stuff about LGBT rights is hooey.

I'm sure Owlbread can tell us why it's all Britain's fault.

Hey be fair! It could also be the Labor parties doing.  :P

No, it's very much our own fault. We bowed too often to the religious establishment,  Catholic, Presbyterian and Muslim. Those who abstained/voted no were from several parties including SNP and Labour.

Damn, I've started making a lot of spelling mistakes since I started posting from my phone. Sausage fingers.
So you've finally shown your anti-tractor beliefs!
Burn the witch!
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._.

Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3713 on: February 05, 2014, 01:19:33 pm »

Tractors are a moral travesty in modern Western society. We must return to the use of ploughs and Clydesdale horses to furrow soil.

If the people of Belarus refuse to submit to superior Western values then we will destabilise their country with gay propaganda until their economy collapses due to infrastructure damage caused by all the mincing. When our non-traditional agents overthrow their government, we will privatise their agricultural machinery production industry then dismantle all the factories.
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lemon10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3714 on: February 05, 2014, 01:52:54 pm »

When our non-traditional agents overthrow their government, we will privatise their agricultural machinery production industry then dismantle all the factories.
Haha, its funny cause its true.
EDIT: Fixed something getting italisized instead of struck through. Curse you italics tag.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 04:12:20 pm by lemon10 »
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3715 on: February 05, 2014, 01:57:44 pm »

However, one point still stand: Russia poured huge amount of cash into the Sochi Olympics, making it the most expensive Olympic game ever (Second come China at 43 billions, but those were summer Olympics. The other games tend to cost less than $15 billions) and the results are far from stellar. Hotel with the lobby not build yet is not "less than stellar reception", not when that much money was poured in. It's a sign of corruption, embezzlement and widespread mismanagement.

The number of 50 billion dollars spent by Russia for the Sochi Olympics isn't official. It comes from a liberal Russian politician and a Yale graduate Alexei Navalny. Many his reports about corruption have been criticised for inaccuracy, sometimes even by his followers, but Western media believes everything he says, because his liberal and pro-Western political views make him more truthful than any other sources.

Frankly, Russia deserve more than Putin.
...because Yeltsin's incorruptible liberal democracy that was destroyed by tyrant Putin was so much better. Lots of people in Russia had to collect scraps to survive back then. Many people who couldn't find jobs or who didn't have any money because of salaries not being paid drank themselves to death, committed suicide or even simply starved. One of West's favourite Russian politicians from the 1990s, Anatoli Chubais, spoke about them to his successor chief of Russian Propriety Committee Vladimir Polevanov: "Why do you care about them? Let's say, thirty million people will die. They didn't fit into the market. Don't think about them, others will grow".
The 1990s have left a very good impression about liberalism, laissez-faire economic policies and democracy among the Russian people.

P.S. Also, you haven't answered about security concern. Who wants to bet on the likelihood of an attack?

Sochi is basically a closed city right now, so any direct terrorist attack at the Olympics will be hard to carry out. The most common troublemakers will likely be Western activists, just like on the 2008 Olympic Games in Beijing. Time will tell, though.

Guardian's mindset is frozen in some indetermimate 1985 date. Russia is unfairly criticised at every turn and never did anything wrong, it is under threat from the West which is a united entity and always will be, North Korea really isn't all that bad, strong leadership is the answer, tractor factories are important, Belarus/Russia are the same, Stalin really wasn't all that bad, Russia has never colonised other nations only civilised them, Gaddafi really wasn't all that bad, Assad really isn't all that bad, all this stuff about LGBT rights is hooey.
I won't argue about many of these points, because I'm not in the mood for that and I don't want to repeat the same things again, but anyway:
1. I didn't say that North Korea is good. North Korea with its ideology of Stalinism taken to a logical extreme with Korean nationalism mixed in was an odd country even among the Socialist states during the times of USSR. North Korean policies are extremely heavy-handed, but most Western sources reporting about them are propaganda sources that shouldn't be taken at face value.
2. Liberal democracy is not a panacea against all troubles that can apply (and should be applied) in every single country. Quite a lot of Westerners believe it, because their "freedom and liberty above all else" mindset ingrained in their cultures don't accept any authoritarian rule - it inhibits freedom, so it's universally wrong. The example of all democratic governments of post-Soviet states in the 1990s proves that democracy is not always effective - liberal leaders couldn't solve the problems of their countries and were more concerned about making money for themselves, benefiting their sponsors and being friends with the West.
The life of people in Libya didn't improve much with the death of Gaddafi. Now Libya is a country of squabbling tribes and armed militias that hinges on the verge of collapse, but if we look at it from a Western "freedom first" point of view, it got better, because now it's a democracy. Russians would say otherwise.
3. Where did I say that Belarus and Russia are the same? Culturally, they are not. Belarusians and Russians have different mentalities, for example Belarusians are much more orderly and don't take things to logical extremes like Russians. Some Russian war veteran in the 19th century even complained about Belarusian soldiers that they don't indulge in drunk parties like Russian soldiers do.
4. You may ask why I'm so worried about the West being a Russian adversary. The problem is that Belarus lies on a path that many Western armies took on their way to "civilize those Russian barbarians". As a result of the latest such quest for European integration committed by a group of European countries viewing themselves as morally and culturally superior to the rest of the world, Belarus lost 25-33% of its population - about 2-3.5 million people. We are at a crossroads of many transport routes leading to Russia - during the war between Russia and any European powers, we find ourselves between the hammer and an anvil.

Tractors are a moral travesty in modern Western society. We must return to the use of ploughs and Clydesdale horses to furrow soil.

If the people of Belarus refuse to submit to superior Western values then we will destabilise their country with gay propaganda until their economy collapses due to infrastructure damage caused by all the mincing. When our non-traditional agents overthrow their government, we will privatise their agricultural machinery production industry then dismantle all the factories.
I see that you are being ironic, but anyway, concerning industry, the liberal reforms in former Warsaw Pact states and many Soviet republics did result in the destruction of many factories. The former workplace of Lech Walensa the Gdansk Wharf in Poland, the Ikarus bus factory in Hungary (reopened in 2010... kind of), the RAF minibus factory and VEF radio factory in Latvia, the textile factories in Estonia and many others are examples of it.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 02:05:20 pm by Guardian G.I. »
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this means that a donation of 30 dollars to a developer that did not deliver would equal 4.769*10^-14 hitlers stolen from you
that's like half a femtohitler
and that is terrible
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3716 on: February 05, 2014, 01:58:15 pm »

Quote
...and Clydesdale horses to furrow soil.
[Green mode on]
Blasphemy! It's an exploitation of horses. Furrowing is unnatural and should be banned.
[/Green mode off]
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3717 on: February 05, 2014, 02:19:56 pm »

When our non-traditional agents overthrow their government, we will privatise their agricultural machinery production industry then dismantle all the factories.
Haha, its funny cause its true.

I am all too aware of this. Don't get me wrong, I think it's very unfortunate that when such countries become independent/liberalise they basically privatise everything in an almost Thatcherite fashion. When factories close communities that depended on them/grew around them suffer terribly. I don't think that's a reason to avoid partial liberalisation though, it just has to be done correctly. Something must always be found to replace that which is no longer viable.

2. Liberal democracy is not a panacea against all troubles that can apply (and should be applied) in every single country. Quite a lot of Westerners believe it, because their "freedom and liberty above all else" mindset ingrained in their cultures don't accept any authoritarian rule - it inhibits freedom, so it's universally wrong. The example of all democratic governments of post-Soviet states in the 1990s proves that democracy is not always effective - liberal leaders couldn't solve the problems of their countries and were more concerned about making money for themselves, benefiting their sponsors and being friends with the West.

I think you need to understand that it is possible to have a democratic state with sufficient civil liberties without economic liberalisation. They are not one and the same, they just tend to go hand in hand, especially when the Eastern Bloc collapse is concerned.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 02:28:44 pm by Owlbread »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3718 on: February 05, 2014, 02:46:49 pm »

However, one point still stand: Russia poured huge amount of cash into the Sochi Olympics, making it the most expensive Olympic game ever (Second come China at 43 billions, but those were summer Olympics. The other games tend to cost less than $15 billions) and the results are far from stellar. Hotel with the lobby not build yet is not "less than stellar reception", not when that much money was poured in. It's a sign of corruption, embezzlement and widespread mismanagement.

The number of 50 billion dollars spent by Russia for the Sochi Olympics isn't official. It comes from a liberal Russian politician and a Yale graduate Alexei Navalny. Many his reports about corruption have been criticised for inaccuracy, sometimes even by his followers, but Western media believes everything he says, because his liberal and pro-Western political views make him more truthful than any other sources.
Don't confuse sensationalism with having a political agenda. Point is, a newspaper will publish that which sells, and "Sochi Olympics Suffer Heavy Corruption" makes a far better headline than "Sochi Olympics might have cost too much, but we don't really know". The media is known to brief about stories that are dubious, after all. For hilarious examples, you should look at the Sun. (Especially the Sun and news about the EU. Really, there're hilarious stories involved.)

Any official estimates, anyway?

Frankly, Russia deserve more than Putin.
...because Yeltsin's incorruptible liberal democracy that was destroyed by tyrant Putin was so much better. Lots of people in Russia had to collect scraps to survive back then. Many people who couldn't find jobs or who didn't have any money because of salaries not being paid drank themselves to death, committed suicide or even simply starved. One of West's favourite Russian politicians from the 1990s, Anatoli Chubais, spoke about them to his successor chief of Russian Propriety Committee Vladimir Polevanov: "Why do you care about them? Let's say, thirty million people will die. They didn't fit into the market. Don't think about them, others will grow".
The 1990s have left a very good impression about liberalism, laissez-faire economic policies and democracy among the Russian people.
The 1990's were the decade after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. I don't think you can the result of that period representative for the entire period. Everything was heavily affected by switching from a communistic/state capitalism model to the capitalistic/mixed economy they're following now.

Besides, saying that Russia deserves better than Putin doesn't imply that they should return to Yeltsin's system.

P.S. Also, you haven't answered about security concern. Who wants to bet on the likelihood of an attack?

Sochi is basically a closed city right now, so any direct terrorist attack at the Olympics will be hard to carry out. The most common troublemakers will likely be Western activists, just like on the 2008 Olympic Games in Beijing. Time will tell, though.
With the amount of security measures taken by Russia and other nations, an attack seems unlikely.

Guardian's mindset is frozen in some indetermimate 1985 date. Russia is unfairly criticised at every turn and never did anything wrong, it is under threat from the West which is a united entity and always will be, North Korea really isn't all that bad, strong leadership is the answer, tractor factories are important, Belarus/Russia are the same, Stalin really wasn't all that bad, Russia has never colonised other nations only civilised them, Gaddafi really wasn't all that bad, Assad really isn't all that bad, all this stuff about LGBT rights is hooey.
I won't argue about many of these points, because I'm not in the mood for that and I don't want to repeat the same things again, but anyway:
1. I didn't say that North Korea is good. North Korea with its ideology of Stalinism taken to a logical extreme with Korean nationalism mixed in was an odd country even among the Socialist states during the times of USSR. North Korean policies are extremely heavy-handed, but most Western sources reporting about them are propaganda sources that shouldn't be taken at face value.
2. Liberal democracy is not a panacea against all troubles that can apply (and should be applied) in every single country. Quite a lot of Westerners believe it, because their "freedom and liberty above all else" mindset ingrained in their cultures don't accept any authoritarian rule - it inhibits freedom, so it's universally wrong. The example of all democratic governments of post-Soviet states in the 1990s proves that democracy is not always effective - liberal leaders couldn't solve the problems of their countries and were more concerned about making money for themselves, benefiting their sponsors and being friends with the West.
The life of people in Libya didn't improve much with the death of Gaddafi. Now Libya is a country of squabbling tribes and armed militias that hinges on the verge of collapse, but if we look at it from a Western "freedom first" point of view, it got better, because now it's a democracy. Russians would say otherwise.
3. Where did I say that Belarus and Russia are the same? Culturally, they are not. Belarusians and Russians have different mentalities, for example Belarusians are much more orderly and don't take things to logical extremes like Russians. Some Russian war veteran in the 19th century even complained about Belarusian soldiers that they don't indulge in drunk parties like Russian soldiers do.
4. You may ask why I'm so worried about the West being a Russian adversary. The problem is that Belarus lies on a path that many Western armies took on their way to "civilize those Russian barbarians". As a result of the latest such quest for European integration committed by a group of European countries viewing themselves as morally and culturally superior to the rest of the world, Belarus lost 25-33% of its population - about 2-3.5 million people. We are at a crossroads of many transport routes leading to Russia - during the war between Russia and any European powers, we find ourselves between the hammer and an anvil.
1. North-Korea is indeed an enigma on it's own.

2. "Freedom and Liberty" is more of a mantra kept by the US(And, greatly hypocritical at that). It's not that strong within Europe, where the central mantra can perhaps be summarized as "Integration with Representation", or depending on your political allegiance "No integration without Represenation" or "No integration with taxation".

3. I very much doubt you could even say that all Russians are the same. It's a rather large country, after all.

4. A retread of the old wars seems unlikely. Especially an European attack. The geopolitical situation no longer allows for such conflicts. Worst we'll see is a bit of squabbling over the border nations.  No more, no less.

 Besides, IIRC, most of these wars against Russia were not for greater European Integration, or civilization. Those were the excuses reserved for attacking Eastern nations, or Colonialism. The wars were merely a result of Russia being on one of the sides in a greater European conflict, which tended to happen thanks to Europe being a massive powder keg. For a large part of it's history, especially pre-USSR, Russia was considered a de-facto European state. It met all the requirements (Christian, Somewhere near continental Europe, powerful), and had no reason nor intention to distance itself from it.

Tractors are a moral travesty in modern Western society. We must return to the use of ploughs and Clydesdale horses to furrow soil.

If the people of Belarus refuse to submit to superior Western values then we will destabilise their country with gay propaganda until their economy collapses due to infrastructure damage caused by all the mincing. When our non-traditional agents overthrow their government, we will privatise their agricultural machinery production industry then dismantle all the factories.
Concerning industry, the liberal reforms in former Warsaw Pact states and many Soviet republics did result in the destruction of many factories. The former workplace of Lech Walensa the Gdansk Wharf in Poland, the Ikarus bus factory in Hungary (reopened in 2010), the RAF minibus factory and VEF radio factory in Latvia, the textile factories in Estonia and many others are examples of it.
The classical argument here is that those factories were no longer competitive. After all, in Europe the Industry gradually declined during the last 30-40 years. In former Warsaw pact/Soviet Republics, Industrialization was artificially kept high/ increased, with the expected results when the government support is taken away.

Then again, the current situation, were the government heavily subsidizes the Industry (as happens in Belarus, thanks to cheap government supplied energy resources) is unlikely to last. The infrastructure is, in many cases, outdated and inefficient, and can no longer justify it's own existence.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3719 on: February 05, 2014, 02:56:43 pm »

Am I the only one who thinks that calling Yeltsin a liberal is a nonsense? October 1993 isn't compatible with a liberal president
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.
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