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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1750374 times)

Dutchling

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3660 on: January 29, 2014, 06:21:13 pm »

Ah, I thought my clearance status got revoked again.
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3661 on: January 29, 2014, 06:35:47 pm »

Ah, so she's of the "punishing poor people for being poor will stop poverty"-brand?

Yes, exactly. That's it. Hence why she was demonised to the Nth degree by our left as some kind of female Hitler (along with her strong, uncompromising positions on Unions and nationalised industries etc), but the fact that she was stuck up and from the home counties made it worse.

It's not as if she was born upper class, though. She came from a fairly humble background, her father was a grocer, but he was very much a "self made man". Hence why Alex Massie was arguing that Thatcher's goal was actually to make Britain in the image of her father - god fearing, self sufficient, independent, morally conscious/proper etc. I've had relatives like that in the past, the majority of them were old school Tories. She also developed that god awful drone of an accent deliberately through speech therapy to remove her old, native rural Lincolnshire tones.

You could say that Mrs. Thatcher represented the South-East of England's answer to Britain's class problem. Until Mrs. Thatcher came along we still had quite a strong, clearly defined class system - a working class, middle class, upper class, aristocracy etc. Mrs. Thatcher proved that you could rise up from your humble beginnings with a British stiff upper lip and so on and join the wealthy. Mrs. Thatcher certainly died an aristocrat, a Baroness fading away in the same hotel that caters to the Royal family. The North's answer was altogether different though and the wild differences in our approaches sharply divided the country, arguably laying the foundations for the independence movement I am so dedicated to now. Where the South-East showed a way for people to join the upper classes in practically every way, even speech, the North spoke for the working class communities and arguably saw merit in retaining that culture through leftism. Perhaps the Northerners believed in "workers", not necessarily the modern Tory idea of "working people".

I've often wondered if Mrs. Thatcher really did change the class system. By the end of her tenure and the turn of the century you could argue that there is no working class anymore. Most of our heavy industry is dead, cut loose by the Iron Lady herself in the '80s because she felt it was no longer profitable, but the careless fashion in which she did it destroyed communities and ultimately destroyed the working class. How can they be working class if they don't "work"? Not in the same way my family did. Nowadays it's as if such people are just people who never "made it" and joined the middle class with good jobs.

But it's not as if the class system is gone. They may not be a working class, but they're still a class. They're an underclass, and in some ways that may be more damaging to our societies than the old system ever was.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 06:43:56 pm by Owlbread »
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misko27

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3662 on: January 29, 2014, 10:16:16 pm »

[redacted]
[EXPUNGED]
Those have separate meanings. [REDACTED] implies information withheld, usually that the information is too sensitive for unknown reasons. [EXPUNGED] can be much more serious: Data destroyed. It usually means information that is dangerous in and of itself, far too important to be let known, or simply needlessly disturbing to the intended audience; it can also (and in addition) imply more information was changed, i.e. several paragraphs on some subject could be missing. Redacted usually means "Nope. Too much info.", who depending on the situation, EXPUNGED can mean "Need to know only" (usually meaning those directly assigned to it, for a litany of possible reasons), "The information itself is dangerous, and must not be shown" and/or "This is too sensitive, but there is a entire paragraph on it, so let's mass wipe and call it a day".

So wait, Thatcher's death was recently? Dear me, I need to read news from Europe more often. I can guarantee you Owlbread, the American Libertarians are deeply concerned with "The lazy poor"; they are just also deeply worried about the government in other ways as well.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3663 on: January 30, 2014, 12:29:59 pm »

So wait, Thatcher's death was recently? Dear me, I need to read news from Europe more often.
How could you miss that? I'm pretty sure that even made it into the Daily Show.
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3664 on: January 30, 2014, 03:23:08 pm »

There's been an impressive standard of debate today from the Unionists in the House of Lords. If they keep this up I fear many Scottish hearts and minds could be won to the cause of Unionism:

Just look here. How can we compete with arguments like that? That supporters of independence are dishonouring their dead ancestors who allegedly fought for "King, country" and evidently "political union" in the First and Second World Wars.

All I can say to Lord Monkton is that I wish every year that I could ask my great great grandfather why he chose to fight in France and risk his life. I'd say "why he chose to fight and die in France" as he ultimately did but I doubt he chose to die. Obviously Mr. Monkton knows him better than I do; it must be quite a remarkable gift to be able to talk to war dead. Maybe for his next trick he should ask my ancestors that fought at Bannockburn about whether or not they think I should vote Yes.

But yeah, his speech was 100% political gold standard. Impressive stuff, keep it up Better Together.

Quote from: STV News
Lord Lang of Monkton, who headed the Scottish Office from 1990 to 1995, was speaking during a House of Lords debate on independence.

The former MP for Galloway and Upper Nithsdale said independence risked turning into an "increasingly hostile divorce".

Describing his view of independence, he said: "The once-united kingdom would shrink not just physically but in the eyes of the world.

"Others would see it as diminished - diminished in size, diminished in population, diminished in strength and diminished in authority.

"The mother of parliaments would be viewed as unable to hold itself together.

"An historic partnership of peoples would seem to be crumbling and Britain's international prestige and influence would crumble with it.

"Our standing in the Commonwealth would change, our standing in Europe, Nato, the UN, the World Bank, the World Trade Organisation would also change."

He said there was nothing positive about an independence campaign that would "destroy so much" and leave Scotland a "competitor rather than a compatriot".

It would "risk becoming like an increasingly hostile divorce in which the parties continued to live next door to each other afterwards".

The peer went on to say England and Scotland were "woven into the fabric" of the UK and added that to disavow that shared history would "dishonour the sacrifices made in common cause of those who died for the UK".

You get the picture, folks.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 03:40:40 pm by Owlbread »
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3665 on: January 30, 2014, 03:55:11 pm »

I still think that even if the Scottish independence movement manages to win the hearts of all Scots that are currently undecided, it will still eventually get 47-49% of the votes at best, like the Quebec independence movement at a similar referendum in 1995.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 03:58:16 pm by Guardian G.I. »
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3666 on: January 30, 2014, 03:58:07 pm »

I still think that even if Scottish independence movement manages to win the hearts of all Scots that are currently undecided, it will still eventually get 47-49% of the votes at best, like the Quebec independence movement at a similar referendum in 1995.

And yet what are you basing that on other than gut feelings?
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3667 on: January 30, 2014, 04:02:45 pm »

I still think that even if Scottish independence movement manages to win the hearts of all Scots that are currently undecided, it will still eventually get 47-49% of the votes at best, like the Quebec independence movement at a similar referendum in 1995.

And yet what are you basing that on other than gut feelings?
Historical precedent? Independence movements (other than colonial ones) have a history of failing.

Also poll numbers from earlier.
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Owlbread

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3668 on: January 30, 2014, 04:15:18 pm »

Yet I've already shown you polls/"historical precedent" related to the Scottish situation specifically that may suggest otherwise. Scotland is not Quebec, nor are we Catalonia. On many occasions I have actually wished we were because then things might be easier.
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Steeled

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3669 on: January 30, 2014, 04:23:39 pm »

I still think that even if the Scottish independence movement manages to win the hearts of all Scots that are currently undecided, it will still eventually get 47-49% of the votes at best, like the Quebec independence movement at a similar referendum in 1995.
Quebec is a bit different from Scotland. Quebec basically wants all the benefits of being an independant country, while still retaining all the benefits of being a canadian provence. At least that's how it was explained to me while I was in canada.
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Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3670 on: January 30, 2014, 06:19:52 pm »

You gotta love the logic. "People died in the past for it, so we have to do what they died for." Clearly I must now support the recolonization of Congo. Doing otherwise would be dishonoring our deads.
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3671 on: January 30, 2014, 06:22:19 pm »

nope, dibs

* LordSlowpoke recolonizes Congo

it's got timber and stuff
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3672 on: January 31, 2014, 06:46:02 am »

Aren't you French, Sheb? There's so many Belgians around, I'm starting to lose sight of them.

Also, may I flaunt the one German colony that still is German today? Just look at my name...
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Max White

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3673 on: January 31, 2014, 06:53:24 am »

I'm like 90% sure Sheb is Austrian... I doubt he has ever even seen a waffle!

Sheb

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Re: Sheb's European Politics Megathread
« Reply #3674 on: January 31, 2014, 06:54:40 am »

Nah, I'm a proud Walloon, in as much as you can be proud of unemployment, giving cash to corporation for no reasons and french fries sandwiches.

The Austrian flag in my signature is there for the time I spent as an exchange student there.
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Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.
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