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[notquitethere]

I find it interesting that the EU are happy to enforce monopolies of cheese name use, but not price protecting monopolies. In the 90's the EU led to the dissolution of the British Milk Marketing Board which had previously pooled the milk production from the thousands of dairy farms and smallholding and negotiated prices.

Nowadays the production costs for milk are around 30.5 pence a litre (or were in October 2012 from which I have figures) but the price paid to farmers is 29p. As it's presumably the CAP which makes up the shortfall, they appear to have replaced a system which was profitable for farmers and the middle men for one which is unprofitable for both farmers and the European tax payer...

[Sheb]

But which is profitable for consumers. Frankly, this is just market failure, we should accept that milk is being overproduced, let some farms close and let the price raise.

[Duuvian]

One thing about milk is you can turn it into other products that store at least a little better. This is why butter became so popular in American cooking in previous centuries, a popularity that still exists today. If milk is slightly overproduced one remedy is to use the excess for milk products and store it for when production dips a bit or export it rather than cutting production.

[Sheb]

The problem is that the market price for milk is now below the production price for farmers. Part of the problem is that farms tends to be much smaller than the milk-buyers that can press price down, although cooperatives exists for that. But another part of the problem is simply good old supply and demand.

P.S. (And if we get a worldwide monopoly on cool-sounding cheese name, we'll be able to export more milk product!)

[notquitethere]

What happens is supermarkets sell milk as a loss leader, as an enticement for consumers to shop with them. It's good for milk drinkers, but with the CAP providing the shortfall it's essentially giving people cheap milk at the tax payer's expense.

You say more farms could close. In fact they already have. In 1950 there were 196,000 dairy farms in Britain. Now it's closer to 14,000. What's happened is cows have become massively more productive in yield (through selective breeding I'd guess), but the cost of distributing milk has increased vastly: where once the milk was sold locally almost straight from the cow, now it must be refridgerated in huge tanks, packaged and delivered to supermarkets etc. There are also health and safety requirements that raise the cost in equipment and labour. Also, large farms have to pay their workers a daily wage, while small family farms typically don't.

In other countries (France, Poland, Ukraine, India and so on), dairy small holdings are widely distributed throughout the country and can sell locally more cheaply. What they might lack in economies of scale (Polish farms have on average 3 and a bit cows), they make up for in economies of distribution.

Further, in Britain despite the rich variety of farmhouse cheeses, there's been a historical reliance on importing cheese and butter (esp. Danish butter)— this means that the excess of production can't be as easily funneled into cheese and butter.

All this to say, the solution isn't necessarily fewer farms.

[Sheb]

Well, not so much fewer farms as fewer cows. If the total number of farms goes down but they get bigger, you haven't solved your overproduction problem. Also, isn't selling stuff at a loss illegal?

And I generally agree that CAP is a big steaming pile of shit too.

[notquitethere]

Supermarkets have a large gross margin on the milk (around 34% mark up in 2012) but they may make a loss overall due to the transport and labour costs which aren't factored in.

Regarding less cows: interestingly in 1950 your average cow produced 2,800 litres a year, while nowadays a top class Holstein produces closer to 10,000 litres. And even a run of the mill Jersey cow makes 3,500 litres.


On the theme, if there was political will, each village could once again be self-sufficient in food, which would be a more efficient use of land (small-holdings make much better use of the space available) and prevent people being driven by hardship out of the country and into cities. But in Britain that would require serious land reform to redistribute the land held by vast estates (especially in Scotland which is the least democratic country in Europe in terms of land ownership and local government).

[Helgoland]

Frankly, this is just market failure, we should accept that milk is being overproduced, let some farms close and let the price raise.

Oh Sheb, let's found a party~

Supermarkets have a large gross margin on the milk (around 34% mark up in 2012) but they may make a loss overall due to the transport and labour costs which aren't factored in.

Regarding less cows: interestingly in 1950 your average cow produced 2,800 litres a year, while nowadays a top class Holstein produces closer to 10,000 litres. And even a run of the mill Jersey cow makes 3,500 litres.

On the theme, if there was political will, each village could once again be self-sufficient in food, which would be a more efficient use of land (small-holdings make much better use of the space available) and prevent people being driven by hardship out of the country and into cities. But in Britain that would require serious land reform to redistribute the land held by vast estates (especially in Scotland which is the least democratic country in Europe in terms of land ownership and local government).

1) Why is even more efficient use of space necessary? I was under the impression that land was not currently one of the limiting factors in food production.
2) Why would small farms be more efficient than large ones? Both largely use the same technologies, and then economics of scale kick in.
3) What about the cities?
4) What about foods that need to be imported, like pineapples, tomatoes, coffee (okay, not technically a food), anything fresh during the winter months...
5) What does land ownership have to do with democracy? We're no longer a society of peasant farmers.
6) Why is self-sufficiency even a desirable goal?

[Sheb]

1) Why is even more efficient use of space necessary? I was under the impression that land was not currently one of the limiting factors in food production.

Because food is not the only use of land. Land freed from food production can be used for a variety of purpose, like nature preserve, carbon sequestration (work well with the previous one) or energy/raw material production. (Hey, I AM a green. :p)

2) Why would small farms be more efficient than large ones? Both largely use the same technologies, and then economics of scale kick in.

It's an experimental observation, not a theoretical prediction. Generally speaking, small farms are more labor-intensive (they have few employees beside the owner and his family, so they can work their asses off). More labor invested in a given plot of land raise yield, whereas larger farms have to pay their employees and so find that their optimal labor use (the one that maximize income) is lower, depressing per hectare yield.

3) What about the cities?
4) What about foods that need to be imported, like pineapples, tomatoes, coffee (okay, not technically a food), anything fresh during the winter months...
5) What does land ownership have to do with democracy? We're no longer a society of peasant farmers.
6) Why is self-sufficiency even a desirable goal?

No idea for those. For 6), you might argue that shorter transportation saves energy, but that's not always true (shipping stuff by boat is ridiculously efficient for example.). I'd like an answer if someone can provide one.

[Sheb]

Also, re: farm yield, this explain why those countries that had substantial land reform (Japan, Korea, Taiwan, China) had their agriculture progress so much more than those that didn't. Of course, labour intensive farming has its limits: as general income raise, you need to give farmers bigger plots to keep up.

[XXSockXX]

6) Why is self-sufficiency even a desirable goal?

Actually one of the reasons agriculture is subsidised is to keep something resembling self-sufficency in case of an emergency. Otherwise we would have even less agriculture than we have now, as it's cheaper to import stuff.

1) Why is even more efficient use of space necessary? I was under the impression that land was not currently one of the limiting factors in food production.

Because food is not the only use of land. Land freed from food production can be used for a variety of purpose, like nature preserve, carbon sequestration (work well with the previous one) or energy/raw material production. (Hey, I AM a green. :p)

Where I live making every village agriculturally self-sufficient might require quite the deforestation effort. I'm not a Green, but nobody better lay a hand on my forests. 

5) What does land ownership have to do with democracy? We're no longer a society of peasant farmers.

Yeah, maybe that is a specific local problem in parts of Britain, I don't think we have that here.

[Sheb]

I guessed he used "democratic" in the sense of "available to all". We do use it like that sometime in French (democratic prices, are prices everyone can afford for example). Not in the sense that Scotland is a feudal society or something.

[XXSockXX]

Yeah, I got that, I mean having big parts of the land being owned by estates (which might very well be private estates of course).

We do have a lot of privately owned land too, but most of it is forest anyway (which means it's use is somewhat restricted by law) and the land used for agriculture is usually owned by farmers.

[notquitethere]

1) Why is even more efficient use of space necessary? I was under the impression that land was not currently one of the limiting factors in food production.
2) Why would small farms be more efficient than large ones? Both largely use the same technologies, and then economics of scale kick in.
3) What about the cities?
4) What about foods that need to be imported, like pineapples, tomatoes, coffee (okay, not technically a food), anything fresh during the winter months...
5) What does land ownership have to do with democracy? We're no longer a society of peasant farmers.
6) Why is self-sufficiency even a desirable goal?

1. Land is a limited factor for everything surely— populations rise, land doesn't. I think I'm missing your point.
2. They use the land more effectively: smallholdings grow a much larger range of food in a smaller space than large-scale monoculture farms. They're more labour intensive, but given that people want to live off the land, that's okay.
3. What about them? Farms will still run a surplus. Most of the world's food supply already comes from small holdings. Large scale farming makes more profit for big companies but it doesn't produce more food.
4. Yeah, I'm not a self-sufficiency extremist here: I'm just saying that there isn't a need to import food hundreds of miles. This may become more important if fuel prices continue to rise.
5. If a family have land then they have a livelihood. The fencing of the commons and the widescale appropriation of land that has happened in Britain especially and is happening globally has forced people off the land and at the mercy of others for sustenance. We cannot be a society of equals while most of the land is taken up by agrocorps and landed gentry (many proudly descendent from the Norman invaders 1000 years ago and still reaping the rewards of conquest).
6. Self-sufficiency is stability.

(Regarding Scotland's lack of democracy, it has 18 local councils. Compare that to the 4,032 cantons of France. Power is concentrated in regional hubs among politicians who's concerns are distant in a very geographical sense from those they are meant to represent.)

[Sheb]

Here, while w ehave a few big landowners, most of the land is owned by farmers. However, large part of the land is also rented between farmers on special types of contracts. It's a big issue, because it discourage farmers from investing in improving the land on the long-term (for example by establishing agroforesty systems.)