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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 837062 times)

Ghills

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8085 on: August 14, 2014, 09:14:18 pm »

They're not acting like soldiers, though. Well, maybe "acting", but from what I've picked up in discussion elsewhere, a lot of military policy and whatnot is... considerably more restrained than police policy has been. It's been kinda' interesting seeing vets shit on how the cops are acting, honestly.

Yeah, it's fake militarization.  'Security theater'.   Politicians want to be seen as tough, so they encourage police departments to be tough, but small-scale police departments can't provide nearly the level of training and oversight that the military can, so all these powers get abused.  That's how we get SWAT teams bursting into innocent homes and accidentally tossing grenades onto babies - bad training, bad goals, and the police are being jerked around as much as everyone else.   I think part of the solution is more community involvement in both the political process and the everyday policing.

  But there's also a cultural shift we need to address. I think it's going to take a long time to recover from that.

EDIT: Honestly, it's fascinating to consider the parallels between police and teachers. Both groups have many of the same organizational and bureaucratic problems that slant the field against actually doing a good job.

The difference is that we can experiment with different forms of teaching so everyone can learn, but private security forces are a terrible, terrible idea.  We can't really have 'charter police forces' or let people swap police jurisdictions the way we can try vouchers/charters/homeschooling/etc.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 09:18:13 pm by Ghills »
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To summarize:
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PyroDesu

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8086 on: August 14, 2014, 09:25:19 pm »

They're not acting like soldiers, though. Well, maybe "acting", but from what I've picked up in discussion elsewhere, a lot of military policy and whatnot is... considerably more restrained than police policy has been. It's been kinda' interesting seeing vets shit on how the cops are acting, honestly.

I've actually been reading the Army's manual on civil disturbances (linked in a tweet on that site that's gathering tweets from veterans about the situation in Ferguson). It's... extremely restrained. Talking about consequences of using riot control agents (they can incite rather than disperse crowds), how even their mere presence could potentially escalate situations, examining how crowds form and disperse and why...

On the other hand, it also posits using marksmen and demonstrations of force if the situation degrades far enough, but it's still quite clinical, even stating with such things that they should be used for maximum psychological effect rather than as pure force.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 09:29:16 pm by PyroDesu »
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GavJ

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8087 on: August 14, 2014, 09:32:45 pm »

Image I put together. Left side are all from between 1967-1970.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8088 on: August 14, 2014, 09:50:50 pm »

I think everyone's suggestions so far are things that should be happening, but the two deepest roots of the problem are ones that I don't see any simple solution to.

1.  The culture of the institution of law enforcement.  They're equipped for war.  Their most extensive training is on how to protect themselves first and foremost in any violent encounter.  They're taught to respond to any form of disobedience with an escalation of force, regardless of any other situational factor.  This would be easy to fix but for #2.

2.  It's been increasingly ingrained over the last few decades that their primary role is to defend privilege and exploitation.  This puts them in a de facto adversarial position against the general populace, and it's just common sense to expect that they'll be equipped and trained for it.  I'm not the first person to say it's not likely to be a coincidence that police militarization has kicked into overdrive at the same time as inequality, political corruption, and the health of the environment have become dire issues.  It would be stupid to think that a NY court ruling the police have no duty to protect citizens only a couple years after banks donate millions to the NYPD as a token of thanks for their violent treatment of the Occupy protests are unrelated events.

I can promise that #1 will not be addressed until after #2 has been, and #2 is not a matter that can be resolved through any reform of the police.
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smjjames

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8089 on: August 14, 2014, 09:58:53 pm »

Sounds like #2 requires a massive culture change, and possibly political change. Not sure how or in what form, or even how it would be done.....
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SalmonGod

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8090 on: August 14, 2014, 09:59:31 pm »

However it's going to be done, it's probably going to involve fighting the police.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

GlyphGryph

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8091 on: August 15, 2014, 12:05:28 am »

Wow, that's... a whole lot of completely unsupported stuff you've said the last two pages.
Quote
When yourisk being brutally murdered simply for doing your job, paranoia and a fortress mentality aren't simply impossible to prevent, they're the only thing keeping you alive.
Seriously? Seriously? You're seriously arguing that the police *have* to be like this or they'll get killed? Do you have any evidence this sort of behavior and mentality helps? Or is this just empty apologism?

Quote
the rampant POLICE VS CIVILIANS divide didn't really exist
This has always existed, between the population the police were meant to protect and the population they were supposed to oppress. You want to know what's changed? The second group has been made progressively larger, and the consequences for their treating the police as anything but an enemy have grown progressively more dire as the power of the police has increased, while oversight and limitations that the police once operated under have largely been lifted thanks to a population more interested in beating down the undesirables and a police force more able to use advanced technology to do things they couldn't before without provoking a major backlash.

If you want to change the attitude, here's a few ways to start:
1. Repeal laws that target large swathes of the population and serve no purpose in actually protecting them. Legally, the police are the enemy of almost every decent person in this country, because they are the enemy of criminals and most everyone in this country is a criminal. (Everything I've heard from Colorado indicates that repealing the marijuana laws have gone a long way towards improving the relationship between police and non-police)

2. Reduce police power. Do not arm them as often, do not equip them with APCs and carbines and advanced weaponry. Hell, don't equip them with guns at all when possible. Do not get them special immunities and privileges that release them from a requirement to follow the law. Do not create situation where violence is the common solution that is in their best interests. This will attract those interested in violence and power, and turn away those interested in service to their communities. Do not make the police force an attractive place for thugs, and do not approach the police as a blunt tool that can be used to cow the populace into submission. On the other hand, compensate them well financially, and make them feel like they are doing good through regular exposure to their community in non-violent and non-oppositional situations.

3. Create robust systems for accountability. There are plenty of really top-notch police forces in the US where you never hear about stuff like this happening, and all of them have this. The technology is less important than the system. Ferguson HAD cameras, but it doesn't matter if there's no will to use them or no repercussions if they catch something nasty. This is a lot more difficult when 1&2 aren't good, because the police you attract will not be the type that are interested in accountability. And not just accountability for breaking the law, but actual job standards. If you have to employ psychopaths and racists, at least make them fear for their jobs should they step out of line.

4. A national effort to convince good people to consider policing. Offer scholarships, financial support, paths to success especially among minority communities and in traditionally disadvantaged areas. Create an enormous pool of diverse applicants, so that police forces aren't stuck taking what they have and can fire people with less worry about filling the vacancies. Stop basing it on a friend-and-family system, and start involving the community in the process from the word go by recruiting from it directly instead of relying so hard on the families of those already in the force, and those volunteers that really just want to stomp boots into people's faces.

Edit:
Local Fox news poll from St.Louis (the page where it originally appeared no longer shows it though:

Remember! Not everyone sees the police as their enemy, many people see them explicitly as an attack dog they can use to prevent the feral animals (as the online conservatives have been calling black folk of late, but substitute hispanics, asians, liberals, muslims, and whatever the enemy-of-the-weak-is when appropriate) from getting to uppity.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 12:59:58 am by GlyphGryph »
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alway

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8092 on: August 15, 2014, 01:04:34 am »

Oh hey, there's a change, Ferguson doesn't look like 2011 Egypt tonight. It's almost as if armed mooks were replaced with, you know, actual police.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8093 on: August 15, 2014, 01:08:00 am »

https://twitter.com/CoryStarkKMOV/status/500041103383744513

Quote
Capt. Johnson on megaphone. Crowd paying attention and cheering. Crowd shouts we love you #ferguson pic.twitter.com/xBzlJtTWNz

This is how people respond to the police when the police aren't treating them like enemies to be defeated or victims to be subjugated.

https://twitter.com/Lussenpop/status/500042795688939521
Quote
Capt. Ron Johnson is here with marchers #ferguson #michaelbrown pic.twitter.com/a60PUM8AkI

All these people seem to want is police that are actually on their side.

The protestors are now being escorted by state troopers, and there seems to be a definite feeling in the air that things have changed.



Edit:
Local police respond to getting kicked out and having the staties fix a bunch of the shit they fucked up!
Quote
McCulloch blasts Nixon

St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert McCulloch Thursday night blasted the decision by Gov. Jay Nixon to replace St. Louis County Police control of the Ferguson situation with the Missouri State Highway Patrol.

“It's shameful what he did today, he had no legal authority to do that," McCulloch said. "To denigrate the men and women of the county police department is shameful."

McCulloch noted that no one was seriously injured in the effort led by County Police Chief Jon Belmar until the Highway Patrol took over security Thursday night.

“For Nixon to never talk to the commanders in the field and come in here and take this action is disgraceful," McCulloch said.

"I hope I'm wrong, but I think what Nixon did may put a lot of people in danger."
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 01:39:54 am by GlyphGryph »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8094 on: August 15, 2014, 06:39:18 am »

However it's going to be done, it's probably going to involve fighting the police.
A good start would be to actually have them legally required to protect the people they're supposed to be protecting, instead of their only purpose to be enforcing laws which may or may not have citizens' best interests at heart like some sort of modern day feudal Knight caste policing the filthy peasants.

2. Reduce police power. Do not arm them as often, do not equip them with APCs and carbines and advanced weaponry. Hell, don't equip them with guns at all when possible. Do not get them special immunities and privileges that release them from a requirement to follow the law. Do not create situation where violence is the common solution that is in their best interests.
Murrican po need guns, just scale down on the artillery and snipers shooting from helicopters and all that. Also in regards to the latter, having police officers having to directly compensate victims of any proven police brutality be paid out of their own wealth instead of by the state would be a good step to ensuring individual responsibility.

wobbly

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8095 on: August 15, 2014, 06:45:14 am »

Murrican po need guns ....
They'd need less of them if the country had saner gun laws in general.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8096 on: August 15, 2014, 07:10:57 am »

Murrican po need guns ....
They'd need less of them if the country had saner gun laws in general.
Murricans need guns to defend against Murrica po

Maggarg - Eater of chicke

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8097 on: August 15, 2014, 07:21:29 am »

I have to admit i'm dubious about anyone thinking that it's ok to arm an organisation with a well-documented tendency towards institutional racism at the highest levels. I admit as an anarchist and communist I am strongly biased against the police (and the concept of the police) but I would think it's undeniable to anyone that virtually any police force seems to be a bastion of hideous prejudice and violence - all sponsored, armed and paid for by the state.
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Sergarr

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Re: Richard Nixon's Sane Conservatism Nostalgia Megathread
« Reply #8099 on: August 15, 2014, 07:45:57 am »

So, is USA a police state or not?
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