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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 837661 times)

GavJ

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7695 on: July 08, 2014, 10:25:14 pm »

National referendums on every stupid bill would merely be way too expensive. *shrug*
(Plus you'd also have to have complicated systems for filtering out too many bill proposals with smaller tiers of elections, etc.)

Also, a body of physical people in a room helps with parliamentary procedures. And with reasonable sized groups of people for negotiations on changes to bills.  The physical limits of humans not being a hive mind and all.

But you can still have all that stuff for practical purposes without necessarily compromising on being faithfully representative.
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Descan

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7696 on: July 08, 2014, 10:34:32 pm »

And in the same vein, a body of physical people are in a position, or can be in a position, to get informed in ways the public cannot without a robust media (and good luck getting a robust media going again). Such as talking with affected and affecting parties, setting up investigations, negotiating with groups, etc. Because of that knowledge and position, it is inevitable that, even with the best of intentions and a mindset and personality that coincides with those who elected the person, that they will do things that their constituents would not want them to do. Such as environmental legislation in a climate-denying district that would be inordinately affected by climate change.
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GavJ

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7697 on: July 08, 2014, 11:14:45 pm »

And in the same vein, a body of physical people are in a position, or can be in a position, to get informed in ways the public cannot without a robust media (and good luck getting a robust media going again). Such as talking with affected and affecting parties, setting up investigations, negotiating with groups, etc. Because of that knowledge and position, it is inevitable that, even with the best of intentions and a mindset and personality that coincides with those who elected the person, that they will do things that their constituents would not want them to do. Such as environmental legislation in a climate-denying district that would be inordinately affected by climate change.
Some of these are representative, some not.

In the case of truly classified knowledge, I admit that you might be obligated to make a decision different than what polls of focus groups would show. But even then, you should always make your decisions from the basis of "what would my constituents vote, IF they knew this?" which is subtly but critically different from "what is best for my constituents in my personal opinion, knowing this?"

The first quote is representation, the second quote is paternalism.

By the way, in most cases, you don't even have to guess. If you have little time pressure and no classified relevant information, you can simply set up focus groups and polls and figure out what your constituents ACTUALLY would do, and just do that. A representative only ever even needs autonomy in the case of classified info or fast paced negotiation. And still, in both cases, you should go by "what would they do" not "what should they do" if you are going to be a true representative.

In the case of climate denying districts, I disagree with your final conclusion. People in those districts have full access to the science and have been informed about it many times. You as a congressperson hearing the same thing again cannot reasonably conclude that your constituents would vote in favor of environmental legislation "if only they knew" because they do know, and they still don't want to. So you should vote against it. Otherwise you're not representing.  IF you are truly convinced that the form of information you got is JUST SO MUCH BETTER than the public's available version, then go grab a focus group, give them the much better version of the story, and see if they change their tune. Go with whatever they say.



All that being said...

I happen to personally think that a paternalistic system would probably be better than a representative one. I would prefer to have scientists be exclusively hired to determine science policy, and economists to determine economic policy, and people with police and FBI experience to run any relevant investigations for the heads of state when needed, and teachers and psychologists to run education policy, and blah blah.

However it's not my place to just foist these opinions of mine on the American people, nor is it a representative's place, who was put in office AS a representative. Unless part of his platform was to overturn the representative system.  The people have a right to KNOWINGLY disenfranchise themselves in favor of experts, if they decide that's best for themselves. Not to get ambushed without their consent.
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Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Descan

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7698 on: July 09, 2014, 12:17:03 am »

To be honest, most places as far as I know do that. The people elected are the guys who decide who's the economic experts they put in charge, who are the scientists deciding policy, etc. It might well be different in the States, I hear they elect sheriffs even, but as far as I know, most systems elect the "hiring manager," or HR or something, rather than elect the peons themselves :P

I could be wrong, of course. What I understand it being might be coloured by what I want it to be, I haven't really looked too deeply into it.
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GavJ

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7699 on: July 09, 2014, 12:30:39 am »

To be honest, most places as far as I know do that. The people elected are the guys who decide who's the economic experts they put in charge, who are the scientists deciding policy, etc. It might well be different in the States, I hear they elect sheriffs even, but as far as I know, most systems elect the "hiring manager," or HR or something, rather than elect the peons themselves :P

I could be wrong, of course. What I understand it being might be coloured by what I want it to be, I haven't really looked too deeply into it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_Committee_on_Science,_Space_and_Technology
First 5 from each party:

Republicans:
1) Lawyer (bachelors was some sort of religious school, unspecified major)
2) Career politician with a politicial science and a law degree
3) Naval pilot and a lawyer, unspecified bachelors
4) press secretary and speech writer with history bachelors and american studies master degree
5) career politician with a bachelors in agricultural economics

Democrats:
1) Nursing degree and public administration degree, worked as a nurse for years
2) career politician with a law degree and unspecified bachelors
3) career politician with a political science PhD and unspecified bachelors and masters
4) mostly career politician, worked with an aerospace firm designing spaceships for a few years and has a law degree, unspecified bachelors
5) Bachelor or arts and master of arts, worked as a school principal

Yup. 2 (not counting nurse or pilot as a full point on expertise in science and tech. Both are potentially narrowly applied. You may have differing opinion) out of the first 10 people on the list seems to have any science or technology or space background at all.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 12:34:04 am by GavJ »
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Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Descan

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7700 on: July 09, 2014, 12:33:47 am »

... So like I said, most places, except the states.
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10ebbor10

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7701 on: July 09, 2014, 03:13:20 am »

Then again, the US is neither representative ir a democracy. Gerrymandering, Super pac's, and all that stuff.
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mainiac

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7702 on: July 09, 2014, 07:50:02 am »


Only 1 in 4 American graduates has a STEM degree and only 1 in 3 American adults has a degree so a group of 10 with a nurse, a doctor and an economist is a veritable think tank compared to the population as a whole in terms of degrees.  Of course it's not like degrees are the end all be all.  The head IT guy at my office has a degree in poli-sci and a background in politics.  My girlfriend works in IT but is studying design.  I have a STEM degree but spend all day doing liberal arts style analysis of documents.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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10ebbor10

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7703 on: July 09, 2014, 08:10:01 am »

Then again, if you look at european politics you find scientists with stunning frequency.
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GavJ

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7704 on: July 09, 2014, 10:37:18 am »

Nursing and economics are not STEM degrees...

So the 1/12 Americans with STEM degrees is probably fairly close to the US science space and technology committee (hard to say with about 4-5 of them not having majors listed, though, no matter where I look. I feel inclined to suspect if they don't list their major, though, that it's probably something embarrassing, not awesome!)

Although number of degrees total of any sort, yes, they over-represent.
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misko27

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7705 on: July 09, 2014, 10:42:58 am »

Then again, the US is neither representative ir a democracy. Gerrymandering, Super pac's, and all that stuff.
That's blatantly wrong though. Any system where the votes of the citizens is the primary method by which officials are elected can be quite easily be claimed to be a democracy. Super-Pacs don't change that. Gerrymandering doesn't either.

You can call it a bad democracy, not a sufficiently representative democracy, or even a corrupt democracy, but it's simply silly to come in here and say having public officials determined by vote is something other then democratic. Democracy and corruption are not mutually exclusive, in fact they go together all too well, so I don't know what point you're trying to make.
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Bauglir

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7706 on: July 09, 2014, 10:48:32 am »


Only 1 in 4 American graduates has a STEM degree and only 1 in 3 American adults has a degree so a group of 10 with a nurse, a doctor and an economist is a veritable think tank compared to the population as a whole in terms of degrees.  Of course it's not like degrees are the end all be all.  The head IT guy at my office has a degree in poli-sci and a background in politics.  My girlfriend works in IT but is studying design.  I have a STEM degree but spend all day doing liberal arts style analysis of documents.
But isn't the argument that the committee should have more scientists on it than the average population? Though, yeah, degrees aren't everything.
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GavJ

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7707 on: July 09, 2014, 11:05:57 am »

Quote
But isn't the argument that the committee should have more scientists on it than the average population? Though, yeah, degrees aren't everything.

I think in an actual representative system, degrees don't really matter. Unless they're in psychology and statistics - because your job should be almost purely accurately predicting what your constituency would do with your knowledge. Statistics lets you interpret polls and data most effectively, and psychology lets you predict others' actions when you can't gather data (also research designs/methods for making things like focus groups or other measuring and feedback devices).

In a meritocracy, though, yes, you'd want that committee to be almost pure scientists and engineers, with a handful of others for carefully chosen perspective thrown in.
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Dutchling

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7708 on: July 09, 2014, 11:07:55 am »

Wouldn't that be a technocracy?
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mainiac

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Re: John Galt's Freedom Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #7709 on: July 09, 2014, 11:18:20 am »

Nursing and economics are not STEM degrees...

So the 1/12 Americans with STEM degrees is probably fairly close to the US science space and technology committee (hard to say with about 4-5 of them not having majors listed, though, no matter where I look. I feel inclined to suspect if they don't list their major, though, that it's probably something embarrassing, not awesome!)

Although number of degrees total of any sort, yes, they over-represent.

Economics is a mathematically intensive science which the NCES considers a STEM field.  Nursing is heavily grounded in life sciences which NCES considers a STEM field.

If you want to play the no true scotsman game then that 25% figure would need to be lowered.  If you exclude the "soft" STEM fields in the social and behavoiral sciences and the medical degrees that are part of the "other" category, the number of graduates annually drops by more then half: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_318.20.asp
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.
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