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Ted Cruz

7 (6.5%)

Rick Santorum

16 (14.8%)

Michelle Bachmann

13 (12%)

Chris Christie

23 (21.3%)

Rand Paul

49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107

[Owlbread]

It's hard to describe to people who aren't socialized into American society. I would almost describe it as a sort of.....I don't know, unified diversity. The entirety of this nation's existence is based upon the ideal of liberty and the contract of the Constitution. Everything else is a toss-up, but those are fixed points. It's why people describe themselves as Hyphenated-Americans, and such.

Let's say Georgia did secede and form the Free State of Georgia. If they did this, wouldn't it be possible for Georgians to declare themselves as also American? Couldn't they be both American, as the Confederates were, and independent?

It would be somewhat disrespectful not to give it a serious consideration, though my previous comment wasn't all that serious, I'm just jabbing at the idea that the No campaign's rhetoric would work so much better in America.

It would. Their economic arguments would probably fare better over there too.

And let's be real here, you want a USA that's both secessionist and socialist.

Ah well, I suppose I can't really hide it.

[mastahcheese]

I think that humidity, the presence or absence of it, is bad in either extreme. But I don't like it when it's making things actually wet.

[RedKing]

Judging by what I have seen of the USA, there is anything but a "singular" identity there.

It's hard to describe to people who aren't socialized into American society. I would almost describe it as a sort of.....I don't know, unified diversity. The entirety of this nation's existence is based upon the ideal of liberty and the contract of the Constitution. Everything else is a toss-up, but those are fixed points. It's why people describe themselves as Hyphenated-Americans, and such.

And yet...when Coca-Cola ran that ad during the Super Bowl that had people singing America the Beautiful in seven different languages, there was a LOT of uproar from some corners (the usual, cockroach-infested corners).



Also, humidity is awesome. It becomes much easier to tolerate once your gills grow in.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Let's say Georgia did secede and form the Free State of Georgia. If they did this, wouldn't it be possible for Georgians to declare themselves as also American? Couldn't they be both American, as the Confederates were, and independent?

Not quite. It's the whole New World/Old World thing. There will be a Scotland as long as the cultural chain of Scotland's history is still around. If the USA is broken up, there is no more America as we've known it. The great experiment will, in some capacity, be over. That's why the civil war was our darkest hour, not the revolution, either of the World Wars, or the Cold War. Brother against brother, not just fighting one another but fighting to decide if America will continue to really exist. If the Confederates had won, neither the North nor the South would have ever been the same. The South would have essentially embraced the dark side, and the North would likely never get past the wound of the South's absence. Even if they grew to hate the South and see them as another people, which they probably would have, the North would never have really been America again either. We just barely avoided that fate with the way things did happen, such was the divide that the South and the rest still carry the aftermath of that rift 150 years later.

I could survive America ending. I could be a Carolinian exclusively. But I wouldn't really be an American anymore.

And yet...when Coca-Cola ran that ad during the Super Bowl that had people singing America the Beautiful in seven different languages, there was a LOT of uproar from some corners (the usual, cockroach-infested corners).

Nothing about our national identity is easy, nor has it ever been. It goes against most human nature to try to reject the idea of exclusion and isolation from all other people (exceptionalism is a problem everywhere, but I think this is why American exceptionalism is particularly recognized), and to try to weaken the wall of Us vs. Them. Everybody knew when it was written that the Constitution was more naturally a racially equal document than a racially exclusive one, and it took us centuries and a lot of death to even get that relatively correct in a national context.

And while people complained, the ad still did run, and plenty of people saw it for what it was instead of having that visceral reaction. That, I think, is where our value as a people is. I believe that we have the capacity to strive for the ideals we say we represent.

[RedKing]

I could survive America ending. I could be a Carolinian exclusively. But I wouldn't really be an American anymore.

I could TOTALLY be a Carolinian as opposed to an American. My sense of allegiance is very much state first, nation second. Must be that Confederate bloodline. The problem is that currently I think if the state seceded, its government would be anathema to everything I believe in.

And while people complained, the ad still did run, and plenty of people saw it for what it was instead of having that visceral reaction. That, I think, is where our value as a people is. I believe that we have the capacity to strive for the ideals we say we represent.

If you get any more uplifting and patriotic, I'm going to have break out the flags and bald eagles. 

[WealthyRadish]

Colorado makes the most beer, is the least obese, has legal recreational pot, real mountains (zing), and that lovely deathly dry air. Can't imagine why we'd secede when we're already the Best State_^TM.

[Helgoland]

Owlbread: I think the difference is that you - like most Europeans, including me - think of collective loyalty as taking place along ethnic/geographic lines (the two are often blurred...), while Americans think of collective loyalty taking place along lines of shared history, ideals and goals.
You can come off the boat and be an American two weeks later. That doesn't work in Germany, and it probably doesn't work in Scotland, too.

[RedKing]

Owlbread: I think the difference is that you - like most Europeans, including me - think of collective loyalty as taking place along ethnic/geographic lines (the two are often blurred...), while Americans think of collective loyalty taking place along lines of shared history, ideals and goals.
You can come off the boat and be an American two weeks later. That doesn't work in Germany, and it probably doesn't work in Scotland, too.

Well I think a lot of Americans feel like it works in reverse to some degree, often to the consternation/amusement of other countries. You have Americans who travel to Scotland and proudly claim they're Scottish too, because their great-great-great-great-grandfather was a McDonald, and then wonder why the locals aren't welcoming them "home".

Or the Irish-Americans who supported the IRA despite their family not having lived in Ireland for generations. Or the African-Americans who get wrapped up in these constructed "tribal" identities but are going to be seen as poseurs in Africa proper.

[Darvi]

So how recent must your ancestry be to be legit?

[FearfulJesuit]

I wonder if it's a New World/Old World thing at large, just not an American thing. Having lived there as an exchange student, I can tell you that if I moved to Brazil and spoke Portuguese, I'd be Brazilian. I suspect the same is true for much of the rest of the hemisphere.

How recent your ancestry is matters, too. My folks (well, my dad's dad's line) are relatively recent immigrants- my grandfather's parents immigrated from Norway in the 20s, and we have cousins in Lillehammer. Compare to an Irish-American who doesn't have any ancestry in the country since the 1840s, or most African-Americans, for whom it's impossible to know where they're from other than "descendent of slaves".

[RedKing]

So how recent must your ancestry be to be legit?

What FearfulJesuit said. If you still speak the native language and/or have family there, it's legit IMHO. Of course, a lot of that depends more on the "host country". Consider people who were brought to the US when they were children being deported to Mexico, and not being accepted by the locals there because they don't speak Spanish fluently and/or they *do* speak English fluently and still subscribe to American culture. They're Americans culturally but Mexicans legally, and they end up being rejected by both.

This American Life actually did a great piece on this a few weeks ago.

[palsch]

I'd say it's a lot less about how recent your ancestry was and more being brought into that culture (through whatever mechanism) rather than claiming it from the outside. The requirements for each are defined by the culture itself and vary wildly, but claiming cultural identity without abiding by those requirements (or flat out redefining them) is sketchy for me.

It's also something that's pretty unique about American identity; there is no inherent cultural baggage beyond very vague principles, so it's the one cultural identity you can claim from outside legitimately. That's kinda the point.

[mainiac]

Race? It is a feeling, not a reality. Ninety-five per cent, at least. Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today

[RedKing]

Race? It is a feeling, not a reality. Ninety-five per cent, at least. Nothing will ever make me believe that biologically pure races can be shown to exist today

And you're quoting Mussolini why? 

[mainiac]

And you're quoting Mussolini why? 

I am amused by the irony of the quote so I like to use it without citation.