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Poll

Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


Pages: 1 ... 319 320 [321] 322 323 ... 667

Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 821277 times)

mainiac

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Re: Le Megathread de FJ du Politique Améri-Canadiain Deux: Éh?
« Reply #4800 on: December 11, 2013, 10:18:54 pm »

Maybe it's just because of where I live, but I'm on Redking's side.  The only place I've seen public opinion of the republican party damaged is on the internet among better-than-average informed left-leaning groups of people or non-americans.  On more politically neutral grounds or in real-life, it's basically all the same crap.  I've seen some people give up on the republican party to declare themselves fully libertarian, but otherwise people typically believe whatever spin their side's media feeds them.  And actually the strongest and most frequent political statements I've heard in-person this past year are how horrible Obamacare is, placing full blame on Democrats for the way businesses are slashing pay and benefits in response to it, and bitter dark humor about the NSA delivered with full sincerity or Joker-like acceptance and abandon.

This is all well and good but how does that mean that it is irrational for people to support the republicans?  If they believe that crap, why would they vote for the democrats?

Your complaint about the political system can't be that people disagree with you.  Democracy is the sacred right for people to support policies you find abhorrent.  There are plenty of things for you to complain about when people support stupid stuff, but don't blame the political process.  You are casting mud at easy targets and letting the real culprits off the hook.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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scriver

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Re: Le Megathread de FJ du Politique Améri-Canadiain Deux: Éh?
« Reply #4801 on: December 11, 2013, 10:22:32 pm »

Indeed. It's like the racist guy who was on the Daily Show just a little while ago. You have to wonder how he reached that point without ever seriously questioning the wisdom of his course of action.

Things like these requires proper citation, you know ;)
Things like that were posted in this thread already. Besides, you wouldn't be able to watch it anyway, as you live in the wasteland of Not-America.

Au contraire, miseur! The Daily Show website is perfectly available, for some reason.
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Love, scriver~

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Vote Kony 2016
« Reply #4802 on: December 11, 2013, 10:26:42 pm »

Indeed. It's like the racist guy who was on the Daily Show just a little while ago. You have to wonder how he reached that point without ever seriously questioning the wisdom of his course of action.

Things like these requires proper citation, you know ;)
Things like that were posted in this thread already. Besides, you wouldn't be able to watch it anyway, as you live in the wasteland of Not-America.

Au contraire, miseur! The Daily Show website is perfectly available, for some reason.
In that case, you and your socialist hacker friends can have all the fun they want disgracing the holy copyright of Comedy Central here:
Fuck it, just watch this.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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SalmonGod

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Re: Le Megathread de FJ du Politique Améri-Canadiain Deux: Éh?
« Reply #4803 on: December 11, 2013, 10:29:37 pm »

Maybe it's just because of where I live, but I'm on Redking's side.  The only place I've seen public opinion of the republican party damaged is on the internet among better-than-average informed left-leaning groups of people or non-americans.  On more politically neutral grounds or in real-life, it's basically all the same crap.  I've seen some people give up on the republican party to declare themselves fully libertarian, but otherwise people typically believe whatever spin their side's media feeds them.  And actually the strongest and most frequent political statements I've heard in-person this past year are how horrible Obamacare is, placing full blame on Democrats for the way businesses are slashing pay and benefits in response to it, and bitter dark humor about the NSA delivered with full sincerity or Joker-like acceptance and abandon.

This is all well and good but how does that mean that it is irrational for people to support the republicans?  If they believe that crap, why would they vote for the democrats?

Your complaint about the political system can't be that people disagree with you.  Democracy is the sacred right for people to support policies you find abhorrent.  There are plenty of things for you to complain about when people support stupid stuff, but don't blame the political process.  You are casting mud at easy targets and letting the real culprits off the hook.

No, I was commenting on the discussion a little bit further back, where MSH was talking about how much the Republican party has damaged itself, and Redking countered that he doesn't think the wounds run as deep as MSH is making out.  I was only agreeing with Redking.
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Le Megathread de FJ du Politique Améri-Canadiain Deux: Éh?
« Reply #4804 on: December 12, 2013, 01:17:02 pm »

All this politics talk has reminded me that my uni has no chapter of the LaRouche Society. Maybe I should start one.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

RedKing

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Re: Le Megathread de FJ du Politique Améri-Canadiain Deux: Éh?
« Reply #4806 on: December 12, 2013, 02:50:51 pm »

I took enough public opinion courses in grad school to sour me on the democratic process but good. Most people do not make rational voting decisions (even highly educated voters), and party affiliation is the single strongest predictor of voting outcomes. It's heartening to see an increase in independents, but all that does is make the outcome less clear, it doesn't mean that people are voting any *smarter*.

You are making a non-sequitor there.  You say people vote irrationally, then you say that they vote a party ticket.  But what is irrational about voting a party ticket?  If you would strongly prefer one party, it would be very irrational to not support them usually.  And given our current political makeup, most people strongly prefer one party.  Unless you can explain to me why I as a liberal should prefer Jim DeMint to Alvin Greene, your argument is fallacious.

Btw, how many people use this extension? https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/xkcd-substitutions/jkgogmboalmaijfgfhfepckdgjeopfhk
But if you ask most people, they'll insist that they "vote for the person, not the party". And then vote 95-99% of the time for candidates of the same party. You can't tell me that either major party has the best candidate 95-99% of the time in *any* district.

When I say that voters are irrational, I don't mean that they're crazy or stupid. It's that the things that drive their vote aren't the things they *think* are driving their vote. And the fact that cognitive dissonance is rampant when it comes to political opinions.

There was one study (i'll have to dig through my books to find the particulars) where they took a group of people and got them to take a stand on a particular issue (and recorded them). Then they had them sit through a lecture by a supposed expert stating why Thing A was bad. Then they re-polled them AND they asked them to put down what their initial stance had been. Almost everybody was against Thing A now. What was shocking was that many people who had changed their opinion listed their original opinion as being that Thing A was bad. When confronted with recorded evidence that they had originally not been against Thing A, they still maintained that they had never changed their mind and had always been against Thing A.

Then a few days later, they had the *same expert* come back in and say that the data had turned out to be in error and that Thing A was actually not bad and it was all a mistake. Then they re-polled again. Most people didn't change their opinion and were still against Thing A.

This is why it's so goddamn important in politics to bet the one to set the narrative. If you claim that Obamacare is a disaster before it even starts out, people will think it's a disaster no matter what the actual results are. (The fact that the website launch *was* a disaster surely didn't help).

As for the former issue, let's take the Iraq War. It's very hard now to find people who will openly admit supporting going to war in Iraq in 2003. And yet, public opinion was very strong in favor of it. I know several former co-workers who personally gave me hell for being against the war, and within a few years were going "Man, I knew we should never have gotten involved there..."

The urge to bitchslap some of these people until their face glows is very, very strong at times.
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Max White

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Re: Le Megathread de FJ du Politique Améri-Canadiain Deux: Éh?
« Reply #4807 on: December 12, 2013, 04:00:22 pm »

So the Tea Party is not doing too well, but interestingly enough, compared to the last poll I posted they're actually more well liked than the Republican Party in general.
Is this that long foretold fall of the republic for the first galactic empire?

~Snip
You know what hurts? As in really hurts? As humans who are subject to the human condition, chances are we display the same irrational behavior and don't even realize it in our everyday lives.

lue

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Re: Le Megathread de FJ du Politique Améri-Canadiain Deux: Éh?
« Reply #4808 on: December 12, 2013, 04:17:46 pm »

So the Tea Party is not doing too well, but interestingly enough, compared to the last poll I posted they're actually more well liked than the Republican Party in general.
Considering how the Tea Party does awesome at primaries and then fails at general elections, I imagine at least some of those "hooray Tea Party!" opinions come from liberals :D .
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Max White

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Re: Le Megathread de FJ du Politique Améri-Canadiain Deux: Éh?
« Reply #4809 on: December 12, 2013, 04:23:38 pm »

Considering how the Tea Party does awesome at primaries and then fails at general elections, I imagine at least some of those "hooray Tea Party!" opinions come from liberals :D .
I can't imagine why you are pleased about democratic process being bastardized like that... After all, it is a double edged sword.

Helgoland

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Re: Le Megathread de FJ du Politique Améri-Canadiain Deux: Éh?
« Reply #4810 on: December 12, 2013, 05:06:02 pm »

Considering how the Tea Party does awesome at primaries and then fails at general elections, I imagine at least some of those "hooray Tea Party!" opinions come from liberals :D .
I can't imagine why you are pleased about democratic process being bastardized like that... After all, it is a double edged sword.
Well, sure, but it swings in the right direction!
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SalmonGod

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Re: Le Megathread de FJ du Politique Améri-Canadiain Deux: Éh?
« Reply #4811 on: December 12, 2013, 05:51:42 pm »

~Snip
You know what hurts? As in really hurts? As humans who are subject to the human condition, chances are we display the same irrational behavior and don't even realize it in our everyday lives.

Yeah... but once you know how those quirks of human thought work, you can catch yourself at them, and build habits to counter them.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Darvi

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Aqizzar

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Re: Le Megathread de FJ du Politique Améri-Canadiain Deux: Éh?
« Reply #4813 on: December 12, 2013, 09:16:56 pm »

So, for anybody who thought yesterday's news that John Boehner was giving the finger to the Heritage Foundation, et al., was just a one-off fluke of passing a budget before Christmas, today he really came out swinging.

Quote from:  Mr. Peanut
But when groups come out and criticize something they've never seen, you begin to wonder just how credible those actions are.

A statement so dripping with irony you could power a car with it, but nonetheless it looks like Boehner has finally lost his patience with the tigers he's been riding around on for the last five years.  Meanwhile, the Heritage Foundation is saying Paul Ryan, the guy they tried to draft for President not even two years ago, is not really that conservative because of the budget deal he agreed to.  I think they're rapidly approaching their Robespierre threshold.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Le Megathread de FJ du Politique Améri-Canadiain Deux: Éh?
« Reply #4814 on: December 12, 2013, 09:25:36 pm »

But muh chaos!
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.
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