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Ted Cruz

7 (6.5%)

Rick Santorum

16 (14.8%)

Michelle Bachmann

13 (12%)

Chris Christie

23 (21.3%)

Rand Paul

49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107

[freeformschooler]

USBC    immigration controls       8%    2006
NRLC    restrictions on abortion       0%    2006

These two kinda surprise me.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The secular groups like him? Sorry criminals, you are going to have to take one for the team!
Also love the NRA rating there. 

Still, surprising just how much support their is for the death penalty. That is generally seen far, far right policy.

Pretty much every President has been for the death penalty, it doesn't change much of anything. The death penalty has been almost exclusively the domain of the judiciary for a long, long time. Legislatures get changes through sometimes, and governors have had a say, but for the most part anything but how things are gets shot down by the courts. The President has not directly changed death penalty policy in decades, as far as I am aware.

It's different in the US. For one thing, it's an extremely, extremely, extremely emotionalized issue that most people don't think about realistically. To them, opposing the death penalty is equal to letting rapists and murderers go unpunished, nevermind that you can't be put to death for rape and most murderers aren't eligible for the death penalty, with most of those that are not receiving it.

[Lagslayer]

And most people against the death penalty view it as equivalent to murdering children.

[Descan]

Well, fight fire with fire. Or emotionalism with emotionalism.

"How would you like it if your child was falsely accused and no one believed you that he was innocent? Would you want him to be executed? There's always mistakes in criminal justice systems, let's not compound any that arise."

[Lagslayer]

Well, fight fire with fire. Or emotionalism with emotionalism.

"How would you like it if your child was falsely accused and no one believed you that he was innocent? Would you want him to be executed? There's always mistakes in criminal justice systems, let's not compound any that arise."

I was trying to point out the hypocrisy of his statement by using the same sort of broad, sweeping generalizations that he was. It was intended to be satire of sorts. Because judging by his statement, confronting it with a calm, rational statement would fall on deaf ears.

[misko27]

Yeah, Death Penalty is a social issue, but one with most support on the, well, right. Culturally speaking Americans should be against the Government taking life away, but socially Americans are very, very harsh on criminals. Even above Russia's per 100,000. We actually have more in Prison then China, a totalitarian states several times our population. America is the World's Prison.

Ah... Yea I really am not a huge fan of that sort of ad hominem clap trap.
Don't like Obama? Forget the drone strikes and the surveillance, it must be because he is black! Aren't a fan of [Republican goes here]? Can't be due to their horrifically bad economic policy or lack of understanding of secularism, it must just be white guilt and you hate successful white people.

I would like to point out there is a very significant percentage of Tea-Partiers who hate Obama because he's black. I mean, no one accused Clinton or Bush of being Nigerian Communist Muslims Socialists, which is a very significant current in the Tea-Party. Remember that the Tea-Party has a lot of hate directed at him, personally.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Well, fight fire with fire. Or emotionalism with emotionalism.

"How would you like it if your child was falsely accused and no one believed you that he was innocent? Would you want him to be executed? There's always mistakes in criminal justice systems, let's not compound any that arise."

I was trying to point out the hypocrisy of his statement by using the same sort of broad, sweeping generalizations that he was. It was intended to be satire of sorts. Because judging by his statement, confronting it with a calm, rational statement would fall on deaf ears.

Hypocrisy? What exactly about my statement is hypocritical? My arguments against the death penalty are not emotionally based, but I didn't even make an argument against the death penalty at all. I described how I see the death penalty treated in open debate and the public consciousness.

When's the last time you watched a death penalty debate? Emotions only run higher when it comes to discussing late-term abortions.

Fact is, there is little rational discussion of the death penalty. It makes up a miniscule segment of the justice system, and it's all about whether it is acceptable for people to indulge in vengeance on behalf of someone else. That is what it comes down to in the end.

[Lagslayer]

Fact is, there is little rational discussion of the death penalty.

I know most of the debate is just shouting at one another. Pretty much all of politics has become this. My beef was with you trying to paint your side stated view as rational, and opponents as hate crazed monsters.

It makes up a miniscule segment of the justice system, and it's all about whether it is acceptable for people to indulge in vengeance on behalf of someone else. That is what it comes down to in the end.

And now you are trying to back out of it, while pulling the same crap you did before.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Fact is, there is little rational discussion of the death penalty.

I know most of the debate is just shouting at one another. Pretty much all of politics has become this. My beef was with you trying to paint your side stated view as rational, and opponents as hate crazed monsters.

It makes up a miniscule segment of the justice system, and it's all about whether it is acceptable for people to indulge in vengeance on behalf of someone else. That is what it comes down to in the end.

And now you are trying to back out of it, while pulling the same crap you did before.

You're perfectly allowed to try and compose a rational argument in favor of the death penalty, and I wish you good luck, because I've certainly never seen a (sound) one before.

Not all positions are equal. There are issues out there where rational arguments can be made for most sides, like free trade and taxation. And there are issues which only some positions hold the monopoly on rational arguments, like gay marriage and yes, the death penalty. I'm not going to try to maintain some ethereal golden mean.

I also never said anybody was hate-filled, or monstrous. I do understand the pro-death penalty side. If somebody killed somebody I cared about, I'd likely desire their blood as well. But just because one desires something doesn't make it a sound argument for what policies the government should enact.

[Leafsnail]

And most people against the death penalty view it as equivalent to murdering children.

Considering children were being executed in the US just over a decade ago this perhaps isn't the best comparison to bring up.

[Chaoswizkid]

I would like to point out there is a very significant percentage of Tea-Partiers who hate Obama because he's black. I mean, no one accused Clinton or Bush of being Nigerian Communist Muslims Socialists, which is a very significant current in the Tea-Party. Remember that the Tea-Party has a lot of hate directed at him, personally.

Communist/Socialist comes from being a Democrat. That's just the same-old, same-old.
Nigerian? No. Kenyan. Because his father was from Kenya. Unless they do actually think he's Nigerian, in which case... Tea Party logic.
Muslim? That's just the Tea Party and other people being stupid. They get it mostly from his middle name, though, I think.
I don't really think it's because he's black, or at least not for those accusations. Definitely not saying there's not racism involved with the Tea Party; they get a lot of support in the South and I get the wonderful opportunity of hearing and seeing some of the things said about him since I live here.

[lue]

For what it's worth, I'm against the death penalty, if only because, like our Oregon governor, I couldn't bear the responsibility of approving the murder of anyone. And it should be noted that the SCOTUS has chipped away at the death penalty to the point where, now, anyone under 18 can never be put to death ever.

Biden is a dunce that thought copying Neil Kinnock was a good idea.

It's funny how polarizing Biden is. To me and my family, he's the greatest guy you could ever hope to know. To others, he's the Supreme Idiot of US Politics. He was hilarious in a good way during the 2012 VP debate, to me.

I don't really think it's because he's black, or at least not for those accusations. Definitely not saying there's not racism involved with the Tea Party; they get a lot of support in the South and I get the wonderful opportunity of hearing and seeing some of the things said about him since I live here.

You don't wave the confederate flag in front of the White House during shutdown protests in this administration if you're not at least a little racist. Of course not all Obama objectors are, but it's fallacious to say it couldn't be a motivator. (If that's not quite what you said there, apologies.)

[Chaoswizkid]

Nah, was just saying those specific accusations seem more run-of-the-mill or typical ignorance rather than definitely being the product of race bias. The bit that you quoted me on was me adding "... but there's still definitely race bias against Obama."

[Lagslayer]

Let's start from the top.

You're perfectly allowed to try and compose a rational argument in favor of the death penalty, and I wish you good luck, because I've certainly never seen a (sound) one before.

Putting a criminal to death means there is zero chance of him doing those horrible acts again, either by escaping or being let out. It means not spending resources keeping them alive and healthy in the already overcrowded and expensive prisons (assuming it didn't take years more worth of trials and mountains of legal paperwork, but that's another issue).

And there are issues which only some positions hold the monopoly on rational arguments, like gay marriage and yes, the death penalty. I'm not going to try to maintain some ethereal golden mean.

You are doing it again. If those are, indeed, both purely moral issues, than neither side has "the only rational argument". Rational implies logic, and logic is a process, not the end result. There is no such thing as objective morality.

I also never said anybody was hate-filled, or monstrous.

You very heavily implied it.

I do understand the pro-death penalty side. If somebody killed somebody I cared about, I'd likely desire their blood as well.

You understand part of the rhetoric. To be fair, though, that's all anyone ever talks about or even mentions in passing.

But just because one desires something doesn't make it a sound argument for what policies the government should enact.

I agree, though we differ considerably on certain moral issues.




So many ninjas. this thread is moving fast tonight.


edit: I did a quick search and found this article on objective morality (or rather a lack of it). It pretty much sums up my view of the topic (except maybe part of an opinion stated near the end, depending on how it is interpreted).

[smirk]

It means not spending resources keeping them alive and healthy in the already overcrowded and expensive prisons (assuming it didn't take years more worth of trials and mountains of legal paperwork, but that's another issue).

Just a side note - this is a problem much better addressed by reformation of incarceration laws. A lot of the burden on the prison system comes from jailing people who would be much better served with some form of rehabilitation program, notably the large number of jailed non-violent drug offenders who are the side effect of our badly-implemented "war on drugs". I'd hesitate to use scarce resources as an argument for the death penalty; likely that wouldn't be more than a blip on the Misspending Radar.