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Ted Cruz

7 (6.5%)

Rick Santorum

16 (14.8%)

Michelle Bachmann

13 (12%)

Chris Christie

23 (21.3%)

Rand Paul

49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107

[Max White]

You know looking at just how often this happens this is the third time the US government has shutdown in my lifetime.  That is kind of worrying really. The Australian government shutdown once, and it resulted in what is often called the greatest democratic failure in our history. It was a fucking big deal that people who were alive to see it still carry a grudge about to this day, and that was before I was even born.

Your conservatives are somewhat cavalier about how they go about this shit, you know?

[Descan]

It's because they have two really -stupid- systems in place that aren't designed to shut-down the government (Like what the commonwealth and some other governments have in the form of dissolving/proroguing parliament), but serve to do so anyway. The debt ceiling, and having to pass the budget twice.

[wierd]

The shutdown is the inevitable result of ideology trumping reason. Both parties.

Bad consequences of the shutdown:  One of the issues leading to the economic crash several years ago was the lack of capital circulating in the economy. The government began stimulating the economy by increasing the number of dollars in circulation through running the printing presses. That had at least 2 major effects: 1), it devalued all the money the global corporate a-holes had socked away in secret accounts and tax havens, by devaluing american dollars overall. 2) it increased the liquid capital supply in circulation, helping local economic activity to stay active. This cessation of that process will terribly impact the economy, as that life support line will now go dead.

Good consequences of the shutdown: While the government's spending has been a positive influence, its deficit spending has NOT been. Spending money you do not possess and refusing to compromise over it, insisting instead to just raise the credit limit on the credit card (what raising the debt ceiling does) without enacting some kind of budget control and budget prioritization is just plain insane. The shutdown will force budget prioritization, and force re-evaluation of "sacred cow" type expenditure items. (yes, there ARE many of these, and not all of them are social welfare type projects. There is untold amounts of fat in the defense spending budget.) Greece had its government finance meltdown-- Now its our turn in the US. Same exact cause. Too much spending, coupled with irrational behavior, and inability to compromise and prioritize. There is no choice now but to face up to the unpopular requirements that our government has been staunchly pretending aren't real for 50 years now.


How it could have been avoided: Less partisan ideology. Less fillibuster. Less argument. Less egotism. More compromise. More integrity. More rational decision making. More cooperation.

Why that didnt happen: Both parties are CONVINCED that THEY are RIGHT, and that the other side is WRONG and STUPID. They can't both be right-- But they CAN both be wrong. The insistence that they are 100% right, and the other side 100% wrong, (Does not matter which side. Both seem to hold that view, which is why no compromise could be reached) is dogmatism, and faith based decision making. I dont think I need to explain why that is epically foolish, and not something that should be occurring in a supposedly enlightened, educated, and secular country's government officials. The inability to compromise is the inability to properly evaluate need and priority. It is the inability to accept culpability for wrong doing. It is the inability to accept that what you did could even possibly have been wrong. When both sides insist on all or nothing, both sides will get nothing.  QED.

I am very dissatisfied with their performance, but given the track record on both sides, I am not terribly surprised that they would fuck up this bad, rather than admit even the tiniest molecule of fault, or compromise even a single semicolon on any of their sacred issues. 

(Sorry for the tone-- I am neither Dem nor Rep. I purposefully registered unaffiliated this year.)

[Descan]

Regardless of your feelings on Obamacare, the budget for the entire nation is not where you're supposed to try and repeal it. On that, this is entirely the fault of the House Republicans.

[wierd]

Likewise on the obstinacy to hold it sacred, by the same token.

BOTH are at fault here.

[Descan]

Wat. I seriously have no idea what you just said there...

At any rate: If anything, the Democrat side has been too compromising. This has been the first time in a while I've seen them say "No, you don't get to hold the country hostage to get your way," and tell the Republicans to pass a clean budget.

[Dutchling]

You guys actually did it o.o

[wierd]

House republicans, act I: COMPLETELY REPEAL OBAMACARE!
Senate democrats: No!

House republicans, act II: Ok, Repleal this important part of obama care!
Senate democrats: No!

House republicans, act III: Ok, Repeal this part of obamacare that we REALLY dislike
Senate democrats: Look we are NOT golng to compromise on obamacare. We wont make any deals with the gun to our heads.

Govt shuts down.

Previous round of antics:

Senate democrats: CUT MILITARY SPENDING!
House Repubs: No!

Senate dems: Ok, Impose better oversight on these military programs we have listed here,
House repubs: No!

...
...
...

BOTH parties want to believe that the piggybank is endless, but ONLY for the programs that THEY want, and that the other party's programs need to be completely defunded to support their own programs.  Be it increased military expenditures, or Obamacare.

The obstinance that their programs must NEVER be cut, is just as much at fault as demanding that the other's programs be cut in their entirety. It results in deadlock.

The real grim reality is that the US cannot afford EITHER set of programs. BOTH need to be cut. The US deficit spends much more money than it takes in every year, and has done so consistently since the 50s. Voting to increase the spending limit on the credit card every 2 years is NOT a valid fiscal strategy. Properly evaluating what REALLY constitutes a vital government service or function, and what is really just pork, cutting out the pork, and spending ONLY what you can actually afford to spend, is how you make sound fiscal policy. We cant afford our constant wars. We cant afford our military industrial complex. We cant afford obamacare we cant afford freddie and fannie mae.

The obstinant insistence that we CAN, and the total fud and character asassination by both sides at the mere MENTION of cutting ANY of those program's fundings gets met with:

Reps on military cuts:
You are a communist pinko who sympethises with terrorists!

Dems on social cuts:
You are a wealthy asshole who hates the poor!

No, I am an american taxpay who doesnt have bottomless pockets, who is watching you guys spend money that does not exist and can never exist. You are spending more than the total GDP!

[Dutchling]

Properly evaluating what REALLY constitutes a vital government service or function, and what is really just pork, cutting out the pork, and spending ONLY what you can actually afford to spend, is how you make sound fiscal policy.

Yeah, and unicorns would be mighty fine to have too.

[Sheb]

No, government spending is only about 40% of GDP, in line with other Western countries. The difference is that the US tax significantly less than other countries: you could afford those programs, you just choose not to pay them.

As for the Rep/Democrats, you can't compare the two. Democrats don't threaten a default to get what they want. Republicans are welcome to repeal Obamacare once they get control of the Senate, but in the meantime, if both Chambers cannot agree on a repeal, the law should simply stand as is. We're not asking them to compromise, we're asking them not to take the government hostage to get what they want.

[wierd]

I am in no fashion defending the actions my government has taken. (Nor am I a closet republican. I'm just not a democrat either.)

I agree that the US undertaxes. It is actually a serious part of our financial meltdown earlier. The US has so many loopholes in the corporate tax code, ON PURPOSE, that we are underfunded.  Take apple, and its no-tax-me double dipping shenanigans.

Part of the reason why there is a de-facto currency shortage, (and why we NEED the economic stimulous!) is because there is an epic FUCKTON of money tied up in secret bank accounts and tax havens, because the US government wont fucking grow a pair.

Politicos of BOTH parties are financially invested in the companies performing the tax haven bullshit, and would stand to personally lose money by fixing the loopholes. As a consequence they dont fix them, and the economy hemorrhages money. This results in currency shortages domestically, and the need for stimulous injections to devalue the socked away money stashes.

[SalmonGod]

I despise America's politics as much as you do, to the point that I refuse to vote for either party, but I still disagree with you on two points.

1.  While the two parties are just as polarized as you say, the republican side is many many many times worse about refusing to make concessions, and is the only side that threatens to destroy everything to get what they want.  Yes, democrats are participating in the game of chicken right now, but they've also given in to republican demands several times before, without getting anything in return from them.  This has been the standard political routine of most of my adult life.  As much as I hate both sides, I still would rather not see their political conflicts permanently dominated by the side that decides to act most like a tantruming toddler.  The republicans are just going to do the same thing every fucking year until the democrats decide to throw down on it with resolve, and the sooner the better.

2.  There's no reason we can't afford social programs that offer a lot more than ours do currently.  We're so far behind the rest of the developed word in this regard, it's fucking sad and pathetic.  The cost of our programs isn't a matter of size, but of inefficiency.  It is this way because republicans go to these extremes to prevent any attempt at a step towards improvement.

[10ebbor10]

Doing some calculations, using the CIA world factbook.

Income: $2.449 trillion + 1 trillion social contributions
Expenses: $3.538 trillion + 2.3 trillion
Deficit: Approx 2,3 trilion

Debt: 17 trillion*
Interest rate: approximately** 2.5%  (432 billion)

So every year the US has to find another 50 billion dollars, just to pay of increasing interest. However, the interest is currently historically low; If it raises (which it will) to a more sane 4%, debt expenses would skyrocket to 0,7 trillion, and increase with 0,1 trillion/year.

Conclusion: Us is worse of than Greece, but nobody dares to admit it.

*If you include unfunded obligations, 62 trillion, or more than 4 times the GDP.
**Calculated based on interest expenses, because I coulnd't find real numbers.   

On a side note, this shutdown hits NASA hard. 98% of it's employees are in furlough, and everything is put in standbye.

Why the shutdown system anyway? It's ineffictive at what it wants to accomplish, stupid and damaging to the economy. Systems wprl ùuch better in Belgium. If there's for some reason no governement, the previous, or temporary governement, or whoever is in charge, gets a monthly allowance of 1/12 the yearly income, and no more. Technically you could run the country this way, though you can't make debts, or large investements.

[Mlamlah]

Regardless of wether you think republican tea party members have the right idea in cutting healthcare this is an extremely undemocratic and inexcusable move. Personally, while I do not think such cogs are part of the political machine, I think that those involved should be punished for abusing their authority to strongarm someone with a piece of legislation for a purpose that the document is very much *not* for.

[wierd]

Oh, I agree whole heartedly.

I have precisely ZERO love for either party. The Democrats are just less heavy handed. Every bit as crooked though.

My assertion that both are equally culpable in this mess, does not mean I favor one or the other. I HATE THEM BOTH.