Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


Pages: 1 ... 135 136 [137] 138 139 ... 667

Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 832006 times)

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2040 on: September 16, 2013, 08:06:39 pm »

That is fine, though I must remind you that policemen and other figures in that field do exactly that on a regular basis. It's one of the better ways to implement effective legislation against crime rather than creating some kind of loop-hole ridden mess, created in a hurry based on emotion.
No don't get me wrong I'm sure you'd be a great murderer.  Way smarter than all those dumb real life murderers who don't do that.

(for the record your proposed plan has the rather significant flaw that the police can just track the package and arrest you)

Regardless of what you would "rather", criminals will get their hands on a live firearm if they know how to get it. It would also be completely off the radar. You'd have to be a very silly criminal to murder someone with the same gun the police have allowed you to use and keep records on.
I think the fundamental problem is that you're assuming that all murderers are highly intelligent ganglords, when actually they are a tiny minority.  Also that you're not really thinking about the implications of a channel through which anyone (ie, including the police) can obtain a firearm.
Logged

Owlbread

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2041 on: September 16, 2013, 08:13:37 pm »

No don't get me wrong I'm sure you'd be a great murderer.  Way smarter than all those dumb real life murderers who don't do that.

What exactly is the point in you making comments like that? When I tried to suggest a way that criminals can circumvent our gun laws, you start calling me an armchair murderer. Where do I go with that?

Quote
(for the record your proposed plan has the rather significant flaw that the police can just track the package and arrest you)

That can be very difficult for the police depending on how the weapon is smuggled into the country and whether or not you have used things like TOR sensibly. My understanding is that there would not be a single package, rather, many separate packages are sent to various parts of the country that you would then go around and pick up, then assemble the gun.

Quote
I think the fundamental problem is that you're assuming that all murderers are highly intelligent ganglords, when actually they are a tiny minority.  Also that you're not really thinking about the implications of a channel through which anyone (ie, including the police) can obtain a firearm.

You don't have to be a highly intelligent ganglord to acquire an illegal firearm in the UK, nor do I think that all murderers are like that. I haven't made that claim. In fact, I've consistently suggested otherwise - that we are protected by their stupidity. TOR is just one way of course, and you are right, you would have to be extremely careful that you don't get caught out in a sting operation. That said, people purchase and acquire untold quantities of child pornography and drugs through TOR and don't always get caught. To purchase drugs regularly (class A) through the silk road is actually very common among certain groups of people.

I think the police watch for the big fish. You know, the guys and girls that might be linked to pedophile rings or drug dealing on a large scale and so forth. Depending on the level of surveillance they're keeping on TOR (which is very difficult for them), I reckon it wouldn't be as hard as you think to acquire guns. I certainly saw enough dealers last time I checked, though interestingly their handguns were more expensive than their rifles.

I think this is still relevant to the expressly American politics thread because this may be a potential scenario for a future USA with tightened gun laws.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 08:40:08 pm by Owlbread »
Logged

Chaoswizkid

  • Bay Watcher
  • Bring on the Chaos
    • View Profile
    • Realms of Kar'Kaish New Site
Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2042 on: September 16, 2013, 10:50:39 pm »

On TOR: TOR is not as safe as people think it is. It was released by the US Navy, for free, to everyone, with the point of it being untraceable. That reeks of it actually being traceable, and the authorities are just ignoring all of the little crap in order to bust the big players. I have heard that there have also been arrests pertaining to the Silk Road that is stirring up a lot of fear that there has been a backdoor in TOR the whole time.

I know this isn't just a discussion about TOR, just wanted to throw that bit of info out there since it was mentioned.


Pertaining to the discussion on firearms bans: There is no sufficient argument against the statement of "Law-abiding citizens will abide by the law should there be a ban on weapons, and criminals will continue not to abide by the law should there be a ban on weapons." The only place a firearms ban worked is Japan, and that is due to their culture. There is no way this would work in the States, and I should think that the rest of the West are similar in that regard, although I may be completely wrong in that. The only thing a firearms ban does is remove weapons from law-abiding citizens and potentially increase the difficulty in obtaining weapons for criminals. Given that it's supposed to be difficult to do that already, or to get drugs, or any number of other things, I don't see how anyone can have faith that there would be a sufficient increase in difficulty that would make a ban justifiable.

This is also why I disagree on a ban on handguns. I would think most people would not take the time to familiarize themselves with rifles and shotguns in order to feel sufficiently comfortable in case of an emergency in which they must protect themselves. Rifles and shotguns are also much more unwieldy than handguns, putting the law-abiding citizen at significant disadvantage.

That said, I'm definitely unsatisfied with the current state of affairs on gun control. I wouldn't necessarily ask for more regulation, just better regulation. What is currently in place does no one any favors.
Logged
Administrator of the Realms of Kar'Kaish Project.

GlyphGryph

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2043 on: September 17, 2013, 01:06:47 am »

Many crimes are committed by formerly law-abiding peoples. The deaths from those crimes could be prevented by removing from them the temptation to be able to fire upon the other party with a lethal firearm. In addition many of the deaths from firearms are from suicides - again, the problem with handguns is that they are temptations. They incline otherwise law-abiding citizens to commit acts of violence. This is not (or should not) be in dispute, because the research on this is clear.

Mind you, there's plenty that could be done to keep guns out of the hands of criminals as well, even in the united states - no one is stupid enough to believe we'll get rid of all of them, or even most, but if we even manage to reduce gun murders by one fourth... the total deaths from firearm in 2011 was 3,1940. Assume half of those were from criminals with weapons - this means over five hundred lives saved. These are just deaths! Firearms, pistols especially, are also the frequent cause of accidents around the home.

Will bad things still happen? Yes, of course.
Will criminals still get guns? Yes, sometimes.
We should not seek impossible perfection - but we can and should seek improvement.

Our first and foremost defense as a society is always going to be that people do not want to kill us. But you seem to be neglecting just how large a role opportunity plays in enforcement of laws - many laws are specifically tailored to reduce the opportunity to cause harm, because we know that reducing opportunity reduces occurrences.

Many people are at some point in their life exposed to a fleeting desire to cause extreme harm to another human being - simply making them work for an effective way to do so is usually enough for that to pass or settle for a more immediate but likely less lethal alternative.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 01:17:35 am by GlyphGryph »
Logged

Helgoland

  • Bay Watcher
  • No man is an island.
    • View Profile
Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2044 on: September 17, 2013, 05:58:19 am »

That's the most improtant point: Most criminals are dumb and inexperienced. (Except for those with experience, but they'll do what they want regardless of legislation.)
The people we need to keep away from guns are not the Dr. Blofelds, not even the Bonnie&Clyde's. The people we have to keep away from guns are disappointed husbands/wives, kiddies going through a phase, addicts needing fifty bucks right now, etc etc. A great deal of violent crime is not planned beforehand, but committed rather impulsively.
Suicide, compared to that, is a relativvely minor point - statistics show that people will usually just switch to a different method.
I'm still glad there wasn't a gun in our house, though.
Logged
The Bay12 postcard club
Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Chaoswizkid

  • Bay Watcher
  • Bring on the Chaos
    • View Profile
    • Realms of Kar'Kaish New Site
Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2045 on: September 17, 2013, 07:16:22 am »

I'm still glad there wasn't a gun in our house, though.

And I am infinitely glad that we have multiple guns in our home. We have had thousands of dollars stolen from us (electrical equipment stored in a trailer that was stolen during the night), our well water was meant to be poisoned (but the person attempting to do so did not understand that the chemicals in ballasts do not seep out by themselves over time) and we had someone come up to our house during the day when everyone was away, save for a family friend staying with us, with the intent to break in and steal even more stuff only to be thwarted when threatened by a firearm. The only reason more shit doesn't happen to us is the criminals - the stupid, redneck, career criminals that lie, cheat, steal, get caught, go to jail, get right back out - know that we have guns and that we will use them should they threaten our safety.

And they don't mess with anyone else that also has guns, unless they can get away with things while those people are away. Guns are a deterrent, just as much as they are an actual weapon. There's a saying that the most polite conversation is one in which all participants are armed. It's a Mutually Assured Destruction scenario that no one wants to kick off. That's not the ideal way to live, but it's pretty much the only way its going to work unless you stack the deck in favor of people who aren't going to listen to you when you tell them they can't have guns.

As for your attitude that apparently the only criminals anyone is talking about are those in organized crime because no one knows what they're talking about, I'm not talking about organized criminals. I'm talking about Joe Blow down the street who owns an illegally modified fully automatic rifle. I'm talking about someone that would break into a construction yard to steal and pawn off all the copper as scrap. I'm talking about people who give their kids drugs to peddle in the schools. I'm talking about people who give their kids drugs for their birthday. Those are the people who are going to do whatever they want and don't give a damn about the rules if they don't get caught breaking them, and they don't get caught pretty fucking often. Therefore, you can never sell me on any idea pertaining to trusting such people that they will listen when you tell them they can't have guns, because they already have guns they can't have. Maybe they won't shoot me or my family, but they'll definitely steal everything they can. But me, being a law-abiding and upstanding citizen, would then be motivated to no longer be law-abiding and upstanding just so I can feel safe in my own home. Anything less than an absolutely despotic ban and top-to-bottom search and massive amounts of funding into constant vigilance to ensure that no one has guns ever isn't going to cut it, and we will never go that far, so its a moot point. It can never be considered by anyone to be a good idea until that happens, because anything less is wrongfully giving the bad elements of society the benefit of the doubt. You might stop the "disappointed husbands/wives" or the "kiddies going through a phase", yes, but you're giving free reign to all of the actually bad people to do worse things than they already are because there's not a damn thing stopping them, and from all of the data on gun control, that's the worse option.

Suicide, compared to that, is a relativvely minor point - statistics show that people will usually just switch to a different method.

Pretty sure statistics also show that people will switch to another method to murder people. There have been serial stabbings in countries that have firearms bans, after all. I'll need to do some digging when I'm not so tired.


Glyph, see above. That's why I disagree with the handgun ban, because perfection is unattainable and anything less is unacceptable because it puts more people into danger than it might otherwise help (and I have all the gun control law statistics to back that statement up, including the handgun ban in Chicago), which eliminates your opportunity argument. Better regulation, absolutely. Better tracking, absolutely. More law enforcement dedicated to keeping track of registered weapons and helping make sure that unregistered weapons no longer exist, absolutely. Declaring that no guns are allowed? No, sorry, there simply isn't enough that can be done to otherwise guarantee safety, even if it means that lawfully-obtained guns might be used to harm other people.


I've done all the research for this. I've looked at the effects of gun bans in the States. I've looked at the effects of concealed carrying licenses. I've looked at the extreme cases of gun control, where a government intoxicated with the power of its exclusive weaponry murders its civilians. I've looked at much more regulated forms of gun control, such as in Switzerland. For the United States, the only thing that can work is simply a better system of pretty much what we've got. I'd like to think if we went full despotism on the matter that events like the massacre at Kent State wouldn't happen, but I simply can't see us going that far regardless. I can't see us going for a standing militia and hand every able-bodied citizen a gun, there's too much invested in how our military operates and how people respond to things such as drafts. Aiming for the perfection of a reality without the threat of mutually assured destruction and without the threat that anyone can end another's life when they feel like it is a noble undertaking. Anything less than actual perfection isn't getting close to it, though, it's just half-assing it and causing more problems than it solves. It goes too far against our culture to reach that perfection, and its either that perfection or its nothing at all, because everything but that is worse than what we have.
Logged
Administrator of the Realms of Kar'Kaish Project.

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2046 on: September 17, 2013, 08:04:11 am »

Have you looked at the statistics for how many burglaries are committed with the aim of stealing a firearm?  I'd seriously question whether having one deters thieves, considering how desirable a target for theft they themselves are.

Suicide, compared to that, is a relativvely minor point - statistics show that people will usually just switch to a different method.
Not really.  Firstly, it does increase attempts a bit.  However, the more important part is that shooting yourself hass a much higher chance of succeeding than most suicide attempts.  And since the majority of people who survive a suicide attempt receive counselling and don't try again, that's pretty serious.
Logged

Owlbread

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2047 on: September 17, 2013, 08:15:46 am »

I think people here all share the noble aim of trying to keep guns out of the hands of the people Helgoland and Chaoswizkid have described. I believe, however, that that can be accomplished through the Czech model of gun legislation in which nothing is truly banned, it is just heavily regulated (compared with certain states in the USA). The police/law enforcement in your area would have to make a judgement on whether or not you could own a firearm based on a set of criteria that you would have to meet.

Indeed Leafsnail, theft of guns from countryside homes is just one way in which thieves in this country circumvent our ban. You can make a concealable sawn-off shotgun quite easily with a gun stolen from a farmer or gamekeeper. That's why the police insist on gun owners keeping their firearms in gun cabinets fixed firmly to the ground.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 08:22:24 am by Owlbread »
Logged

alexandertnt

  • Bay Watcher
  • (map 'list (lambda (post) (+ post awesome)) posts)
    • View Profile
Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2048 on: September 17, 2013, 08:23:17 am »

Pretty sure statistics also show that people will switch to another method to murder people. There have been serial stabbings in countries that have firearms bans, after all. I'll need to do some digging when I'm not so tired.

I just came in to the thread, so this point may have been made before.

Pretty sure statistics also show that murderers with a gun do alot more harm then muderers with a knife.
Logged
This is when I imagine the hilarity which may happen if certain things are glichy. Such as targeting your own body parts to eat.

You eat your own head
YOU HAVE BEEN STRUCK DOWN!

Owlbread

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2049 on: September 17, 2013, 08:27:56 am »

The reason why British annual firearm deaths are so low (around 100-200) is because criminals mostly use knives and just disfigure people rather than killing them, that and the guns are very much out of the hands of the people Helgoland and Leafsnail describe. At least, as far as they can be, that doesn't stop a Derrick Bird coming along. Suicide is also too common in rural areas where gun ownership is higher. There was a man who lived quite close to me (in rural terms) who took his own life a few years ago with a .22 rifle, he suffered from depression (and possibly a few other things) and lived with his sister. Everyone knew he "wisnae right in the heid" but that didn't stop him from getting his hands on what he needed.

That said, I still think our laws are too restrictive in that they limit people's freedom to enjoy shooting for recreational purposes (that includes fully automatic weapons) or for competitive sport (handguns). It is important to find a balance, I don't think the UK has found that balance and the USA should tread carefully before using us as a model. I think people should look carefully at Czech gun laws as an alternative.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 08:40:04 am by Owlbread »
Logged

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2050 on: September 17, 2013, 08:44:38 am »

Indeed Leafsnail, theft of guns from countryside homes is just one way in which thieves in this country circumvent our ban. You can make a concealable sawn-off shotgun quite easily with a gun stolen from a farmer or gamekeeper. That's why the police insist on gun owners keeping their firearms in gun cabinets fixed firmly to the ground.
It's almost like having a lot of people with guns makes it easier for criminals to get guns too
Logged

Owlbread

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2051 on: September 17, 2013, 08:48:04 am »

You'll notice I've never tried to make the claim that a society with more guns is a safer society. I don't play the "self defence" card or anything like that, I see the gun issue as a matter of civil liberty and recreation.

It's almost like having a lot of people with guns makes it easier for criminals to get guns too

Indeed, you've set that up in such a way that forces me to ask; what, then, do you suggest doing in rural areas? Ban shotguns and rifles?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 08:49:43 am by Owlbread »
Logged

GlyphGryph

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2052 on: September 17, 2013, 09:16:06 am »

I should specify that I dont really support a general pistol ban. Keeping them out of the hands of your average joe, removing the seeming immunity to law they have in the Us and tightly regulating things like sports shooting would still be fine with me.

Helgoland dont dismiss the suicide link - every study Ive seen has shown the risk of suicide is much higher when guns, esp. pistols, are available. Wasnt there a recent study by the military that simply not letting soldiers take pistols home with them and making them be left at the base cut suicides by half? That is far from insignificant. Someone google it though Im on my phone I might be misremembering the exact numbers.

Chaos says hes read the staistics but I wonder where he is getting them from since everything Ive seen indicates they are wrong.
Logged

Leafsnail

  • Bay Watcher
  • A single snail can make a world go extinct.
    • View Profile
Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2053 on: September 17, 2013, 09:18:09 am »

It wasn't really an attack on your position, more on the idea that illegitimate guns come out of the ether and have nothing to do with good, honest, rapist-slaying guns.

I'm not sure if stolen and converted shotguns is enough of an issue to be worth legislating on.
Logged

Owlbread

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: FearfulJesuit's American Politics Megathread Two: Election Boogaloo
« Reply #2054 on: September 17, 2013, 09:22:13 am »

It wasn't really an attack on your position, more on the idea that illegitimate guns come out of the ether and have nothing to do with good, honest, rapist-slaying guns.

They don't all come out of the ether, but many unfortunately do.

I should specify that I dont really support a general pistol ban. Keeping them out of the hands of your average joe, removing the seeming immunity to law they have in the Us and tightly regulating things like sports shooting would still be fine with me.

An average Joe should be able to acquire the gun, however, when he meets certain criteria. I believe that it should be possible for anyone who lives in a country home to own and fire all types of guns on their property (registered with the police, with the shooter's background checked heavily/effectively), or in a licensed gun range. I disagree with the Australian or South Korean model of only being able to fire guns within a range, or keeping any guns that you have in a police station. Within a town or city however that model could apply.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 09:29:14 am by Owlbread »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 135 136 [137] 138 139 ... 667