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Author Topic: Arms and Armor discussion  (Read 36975 times)

Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2013, 03:23:24 pm »

As i said, i don't know a whole lot about roman armor, so i'm curious about what you folks have to say about it.


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Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's pretty awesome, if a bit bare. Hence the need for Trajan to steal arm/leg armor from Gladiators to keep his soldiers from losing their limbs all the time. They fixed that up a bit later though.
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I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

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Mlamlah

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2013, 03:37:54 pm »

The Katana: It is capable of cutting european style armor, in the very least a basic breastlate, this has been demonstrated.
Sauces please.

I wouldn't consider this a basis for a "blahblahblah, katanas are better" argument, but is this a sufficient demonstration? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo
I'm well aware of the fact this guy doesn't neccecarilly know what he's talking about, and what passes as leather armor for them is laughable.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 03:42:19 pm by Mlamlah »
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Starver

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #92 on: February 07, 2013, 03:39:25 pm »

(Oh, come on...  I wrote a long reply, and lost it all due to Server Gateway problems...  Thought I'd copied and pasted it, for protection against this, but ended up copying and pasting just the raw reply-quote text...)

Anti-stab vests would be almost ideal for time-travellers, if it weren't for the fact that they only cover one's torso.
I didn't make it as obvious as I'd meant, but that was what the "and more" meant.  Sleeves, gloves, trouser-legs, shoe-covers, abdominal/crotch cover, all stab-proof.  Helmet is a given.

Quote
Hmmm... This sounds like a good plot for a schlock movie... A Police Officer who is for some reason clad in full riot gear is mysteriously transported back into the past...
(This is the bit I spent ages on, this time summarising.)

I suggest:
Professor in a University campus lab, who annoys locals.  Creates brown-outs during Superbowl (am assuming an American setting, "because Hollywood") or somesuch. Loads of people complaining, congregating outside the Research Labs, etc, it all starts kicking off.

Harasssed local Police Chief is ordered to send anti-riot squad.  One of the squad is college drop-out (perhaps studied History, but too much of a dreamer/nerd/disruptive student) who Sarge would never send on such a job except that either a) He's desperate for bodies or, b) there's so much commotion during the kitting-up that our eager Wannabee-Hero ends up sat in the riot van dressed in Urist McQuarterback's gear (Urist McQuarterback, the (literally) 'big guy' of the squad is either in the other van or was off-duty and sleepily ignored the call to arms...  everybody likes Urist McQuarterback, the big (though "looks smaller in the midst of that riot gear"), brave, strong, silent type.  Or at least knows that if they're going into trouble they want him on their squad.

So, anyway, Prof blithely carries on with his power-draining experiments, while riot squads and rioters face off.  A bad decision by the commander-of-the-day means Our Hero's squad falls back, breaks or is chased into the research building, though.  Corridors and fun.  Our Hero isolated from rest of squad, tries to find them (or escape rioters) and barges through a lab door.

Now showing Prof's lab, and he's just finished fiddling and hit some switches.  Switch switching causes wibbley-wobbley-timey-wimey-thing to appear at other end of the lab, near the door.  Which has just opened.  <poof!>

At this point it's near-obligatory that Our Hero (possibly prompted towards this conclusion by loads and loads of Renaissance Fair posters and banners that I'd neglected to mention were planted around the town, but very much are being "Chekov's Signage", telegraphing the imminent scenes with "obvious plot-twist is obvious" inevitability.  Cue anachronisms, confusion, the usual "comedy of errors" stuff that I don't like, but is pretty much expected.  (Actively encouraged in a comedic telling of the tale, but even expected in more serious examples of the genre.)

Anyhow, Our Hero (by now a.k.a Sir Arnold of Schwarzenegger, or some other dumb anachronism arising from the "If you're the King, then I'm..." moment, prior to full realisation of his new circumstances) gets down to the business of Being Involved.  The guy with the Goatee Beard is almost certainly more Genre Savvy than his fellow time-locals and (whether or not he finds out The Secret) manages to engineer some "Nice Job Breaking It Hero" moments, further his diabolical plans to take over, blah-de-blah.

Perhaps it happens after Our Hero is stripped of his Miraculous Armour, and has to resort to something like a packet of chewing gum to achieve the impossible, but it eventually comes to pass that The Day Is Saved.  And now, The Day Being Saved, Our Hero is due a reward from the King, in the main banqueting hall.  Just about to receive said award, Our Hero is engulfed in more Wibbley-Wobbley-Timey-Wimey stuff and vanishes....

...back to the lab, where Prof apologises and explains how he's spent days trying to retrieve him.  (Irrespective of how long actually passed in History, as Narnia/Wardrobe-time could be invoked here, in either direction.)  Alongside Prof is the Senator/Mayor/Secretary for the Department Of Defence or some other figure.  It was the guy who harassed the police-chief into sending the riot squads in, mob-handed... although we probably only ever saw him in an over-the-shoulder shot, with a phone to his ear while he gave the appropriate orders.  Which is convenient, because we (and Our Hero, who for whatever reason hadn't known this person by sight before now) can quite obviously see the family resemblance between the Senator/whoever and our old acquaintance, the King!  Oh yes.  Because in 500 to 1500 years, or so, and with the respective number of generations in-between then and now (and, if history serves to teach us anything, any number of undiscovered Cuckoldings to make the line of descendence somewhat disjointed from the line of genetic inheritence) it turns out that the King's son's son's son's <miss a few> son's son's son looks almost exactly like the King himself.  Give or take a haircut (and the suit).

You see, Senator explains, there's been this family legend.  About a Hero that helped the line prosper.  And as things started clicking into place, the more recent descendants (who had kept, or revived, their ruling capabilities in the form of US politics, rather than medieval... "Kinging") had just enough information to ensure that the events that Our Hero had eventually informed their ancestor about came to pass, for your classic self-sustaining time-loop, so as to ensure that the events unfurled just so...

As a bonus to the plot, Senator is accompanied by Aide.  Aide looks very like Goatee Beard.  Even even has the goatee beard.  Now, depending on whether (by the climax of the historic action) Original Goatee Beard had been shown the errors of his ways, or was last seen being banished, running away or falling into the moat and/or sewer drain of the castle, the expressions on Our Hero's face and New Goatee Beard's face at this point might be different, and generally revealing.  (Perhaps it would hint as to whether New Goatee Beard has family legends of his own, or was privvy to Senator's versions...  and what he thought about this.)

For an emotional bonus...  I'd not mentioned The Hand Of The Princess.  You see, I thought it cruel that just before Our Hero's timey-wimey return he may have been about to marry The Princess, thus separating True Love.  But one way of it working the way I see it is...  Princess had a Suitor (either Princess or Suitor being the offspring of the King, their impending marriage being the reason for them both being on the scene), but then the Hero arrives there.  Maybe Princess already liked the look of the weird and weirdly-behaving Hero, when he first arrived, or maybe it took a bit of time (but Hero quite liked the look of Princess, from the start!).  If Suitor was not in some way already irrevocably allied with Original Goatee Beard, then I could still see him being put out by Princess going all doe-eyed over Hero (once that starts to happen), but he himself would also get to know Hero and get to know him as a friend, and perhaps a worthy successor to his Suit, but they'd work that one out later...  All good friends, Princess is obviously still upset when Hero gets timey-wimeyed back home (in another variation, she goes also, but I don't like separating her from her friends and family...  your choice if this is the approach, though), but Original Suitor is still there to fall back on, with no regrets from them all, and the line that continues all the way down to Senator shall obviously be begat. 

"Daddy?  I'm bored, can't we get back to <whatever it was we got dragged away from travelling to when everything kicked off>?", says Senator's Daughter, emerging from the lab doorway, who looks amazingly like Princess.  Senator's Daughter catches sight of Hero and makes it obvious she thinks him a dish, in his period costume and his new, more positive stance.  (Basically, we've got an actor here that Universal Casting and Wardrobe have contrived to have made look Wimpy King Of The Nerds, or similar, at the start, but by now looks somewhat more assertive and hunky.  The equivalent of the mousey-girl removing her glasses and loosing her tied-back hair.  In fact, should we have Senator's Daughter do that in order to become Princess?  roudns the corner bored to have been amongst old guys (Father Senator, Prof, Goatee Bearded Aide if he's there), sees Hero, despectacles and hair-loosens in one swift movement in order to flirt with the new hawt young guy.  We're already saving money on using the same actors for at least two, possibly three, different paired-roles (I'm sure more can be engineered, also... e.g. Peasant Villagers and Rioters) so I'm sure we can afford a bit of extravagance with that particular effect.)

He, in return, isn't shy on laying it out on plate either.  If you now get the visual effects people to fade out, except for temporarily leaving a heart-shaped insert through which Hero and Senator's Daughter kiss (Senator isn't about to object, after all, this is Sir Arnold Of Schwarzenegger here...  for generations his family have heard only (or at least mostly) good things about him!), before going full-black and rolling the credits then I'm probably going to generate some bile, personally, but again this sort of thing is almost always going to be expected.


The end.  Unless Modern Goatee Beard gets another look-in, from a "faded-in spot" on the appropriate part of the picture, expression indicating an "I'll Get You Gadget, Next Time" attitude, which might mean someone is planning to pay for a sequel.

Oh, and room for Crazy Credits or Outtakes, in the event that this was written as a goofy comedy and for some reason someone thought that these were a actually good idea and not too Airplane or Cannonball Run-era. ;)
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kerlc

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #93 on: February 07, 2013, 03:44:00 pm »

Romans also used scale armour (Lorica Squamata) and mail (Lorica Hamata) extensivelly, especially during the later periods, when the Lorica Segmentata (the platemail armour) went out of use for some reason.

Without their shields Roman swords would be of not much use. Also the classical "throw a pilum at that dual wielding barbarian at point blank".
Yep, that's what the entire Roman Strategy was built as. the Shield Wall technique, with the pilum being used to thin out the charging enemy armies, then intercepting the mass of the people invading with your mighty shields and chopping your opponents up with your Gladius. The only bad thing about this strategy is its weakness to flanking attacks, but that was countered by using either Auxilia or more legionarries, and in later stages of the combat, if the situation was favourable, the legionarries stationed at the sides would move towards the mass of enemies in the middle, trapping them in a pincer movement.

Chopped bits of the Germanic Tribes, anyone?

Missed this before...

Actually, the Roman system, post-Marian, was far from a shield wall. The maniples were staggered for purposes of maneuverability. And gladii do not cut nor chop. They stab. As Vegetius says,

"They were likewise taught not to cut but to thrust with their swords. For the Romans not only made a jest of those who fought with the edge of that weapon, but always found them an easy conquest. A stroke with the edges, though made with ever so much force, seldom kills, as the vital parts of the body are defended both by the bones and armor. On the contrary, a stab, though it penetrates but two inches, is generally fatal. Besides in the attitude of striking, it is impossible to avoid exposing the right arm and side; but on the other hand, the body is covered while a thrust is given, and the adversary receives the point before he sees the sword. This was the method of fighting principally used by the Romans, and their reason for exercising recruits with arms of such a weight at first was, that when they came to carry the common ones so much lighter, the greater difference might enable them to act with greater security and alacrity in time of action." -- De Re Militaris
I know that the Gladius's main use is stabbing, i just wrote the part about chopped germanic tribes for the sake of colourfulness.:P

As for the shield wall thing, i didn't know. Most of the books i've read on the subject went along the lines of "the legionarries put up a mobile wall made entirely out of shields..."
Note to self: get more books on the subject of Romans.
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Zrk2

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #94 on: February 07, 2013, 04:18:06 pm »

Romans also used scale armour (Lorica Squamata) and mail (Lorica Hamata) extensivelly, especially during the later periods, when the Lorica Segmentata (the platemail armour) went out of use for some reason.

IIRC it went out of use because it was expensive, Rome was getting poor, and legionaries were starting to get outdated as horse-based warfare came to dominate the field of battle.
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He's just keeping up with the Cardassians.

Leafsnail

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #95 on: February 07, 2013, 04:22:02 pm »

The Katana: It is capable of cutting european style armor, in the very least a basic breastlate, this has been demonstrated.
Sauces please.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dKwHOfd2dk
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PanH

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #96 on: February 07, 2013, 04:39:09 pm »


Well, now we know that knights should have made armor of bottle plastic instead of heavy metal.
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kerlc

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #97 on: February 07, 2013, 04:41:34 pm »

Romans also used scale armour (Lorica Squamata) and mail (Lorica Hamata) extensivelly, especially during the later periods, when the Lorica Segmentata (the platemail armour) went out of use for some reason.

IIRC it went out of use because it was expensive, Rome was getting poor, and legionaries were starting to get outdated as horse-based warfare came to dominate the field of battle.
eeeyup. And infantry was retired from being the primary military branch for about a millenium.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #98 on: February 07, 2013, 04:53:56 pm »

I wouldn't consider this a basis for a "blahblahblah, katanas are better" argument, but is this a sufficient demonstration? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkoj932YFo
I'm well aware of the fact this guy doesn't neccecarilly know what he's talking about, and what passes as leather armor for them is laughable.
This is sickening. This is the second time I've seen someone use this idiot as a supportive argument for Katanas.

To put it in tl;dr:

#1 He knows little about swords. He used a gladius to hack armour. What.
#2 The Katana he uses has an American kissaki. An American forged replica made in the modern world on an American show being used to promote American weapons.

No, that is not evidence. Not even close.

Katana vs Zweihänder? Assuming both wielders are professional duellists. (two-hand styles/techniques)
Katana vs Rapier? Same historical period and similar "noble" purpose. (one-hand stiles/techniques)
In #1, Katana. Zweihander too slow.
In #2, Rapier. Katana ineffective against it. Stabbing beats cutting. Stabbing is quicker. In any case Europeans still even had better cutting weapons, a la sabre.

Blade polearms like the Falx and Naginata are definitely awesome.
Definitely. I don't like how the katana overshadows the naginata, despite the one clearly being the weapon of choice.

The Katana: It is capable of cutting european style armor, in the very least a basic breastlate, this has been demonstrated.
-Demonstrated to be crap.

The Katana taken all by itself is not a versatile weapon, this is why the style surrounding the katana is centered around footwork and positioning to allow fluid striking. It's not a very good defensive weapon, so it forces wielders to defend by being aggressive. Both of these strategies help to shore up the weaknesses of using the weapon, but it's most effective in short battles. Fortunatly, few of the kinds of battles samurai engaged in lasted very long.
And they wouldn't have been used in battle at all. Unless you were a lone ronin or a police samurai hacking apart peasants. But guess what! Even in 1vs1 duels between ronin and the like, samurais using katanas were still getting smashed apart by people using farming tools and really big sticks, because they heavily overestimated their sword.

As i said, i don't know a whole lot about roman armor, so i'm curious about what you folks have to say about it.
Sexy armour. Don't quite know why it stopped being used, I guess it just wasn't big and heavy enough for crazy European knights.

The role of the weapon directly correlates with the European arming sword.  It was no more or less specialized.  The weapon doesn't require mobility, regardless of what the traditional styles were.  It's functionally very similar to a grosse messer.
It was so specialized as to be completely useless outside its own field of expertise. That would be, cutting peasants and leather armour. Katanas couldn't cut through samurai armour. I doubt they would fare better against the heavier European armour.

An exceptional katana can cut, (not just pierce) metal.
[CITATION_NEEDED]

The western swords tended to rely more on brute force, whilst katanas relied more on your agility and dexterity.
What in the fuck dick nipples is fencing then?

Just had a look at Japanese swordsmithing. The folding process helped overcome the low quality of Japanese steel, so I highly doubt the quality will have had as much of an effect as people seem to believe it does.
They were prone to breaking and shattering in combat. This was acknowledged by Japanese master smiths before they forgot how to make the things three times.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #99 on: February 07, 2013, 04:59:16 pm »

USEC_OFFICER

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #100 on: February 07, 2013, 05:01:53 pm »

As i said, i don't know a whole lot about roman armor, so i'm curious about what you folks have to say about it.
Sexy armour. Don't quite know why it stopped being used, I guess it just wasn't big and heavy enough for crazy European knights.

Plate armour provided more protection for a large increase in cost, though obviously if you were a Knight money wasn't much of a problem. The common footsoldier (and those knights who lived before plate armour was fully developed or were poor) could wear brigandines, which was based on similar principles as the Lorica Segmentata, though seems to be made out of more plates.
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kerlc

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #101 on: February 07, 2013, 05:18:15 pm »

Apparently, Segmentatas were too expensive to be a viable choice. Which is a shame, because they look damned sexy.
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zombie urist

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #102 on: February 07, 2013, 05:19:55 pm »

Well, I can't help but feel the reason that katanas were so bad wasn't so much due to the type of swordsmithing as the inferior iron, then.
Basically, this.

This is the reason why metal armor wasn't popular in Japan, because the metal was too hard to work with.

Steel with impurities is very brittle.
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Darvi

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #103 on: February 07, 2013, 05:32:28 pm »

What in the fuck dick nipples is fencing then?
Are you a Bonobo?
Bonobos are underpowdered
How I read that.

Well, I can't help but feel the reason that katanas were so bad wasn't so much due to the type of swordsmithing as the inferior iron, then.
Basically, this.

This is the reason why metal armor wasn't popular in Japan, because the metal was too hard to work with.

Steel with impurities is very brittle.
It's more of a mix. 80% bad material and 20% mediocre smithing, since the actual good work was spend on making spears.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 05:34:29 pm by Darvi »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Arms and Armor discussion
« Reply #104 on: February 07, 2013, 05:57:09 pm »

I don't think they are quite spears. They look more like a curved dagger on a long stick, to me.

Quite similar to a European glaive really.

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