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[shadenight123]

I'm a D&D Dungeon-master (3.5 Version) and usually every Saturday we have a session at my house. One of the players, my 'lovely' brother, (of 21 years old mind you) has become with the age rotten and arrogant. (Age does wonders to wine, not to people).
The result is that conversation with him are as if he were fifteen years old or less.
Now, a bit of a background:
I am of the idea that characters can grow by going through hardships, and that by displaying their inner character most of the time, they should be rewarded adequately.
My brother's idea of playing is making a new character sheet every day and coming up with new 'Fantastic!' ways of using a barbarian with twin giant chains.
(Goliath)
And when there aren't battles (in which he still does nothing anyway) he jests around with phrases like:
"I try and grapple with the ceiling so that I can swing from one side to the other!"
"He offends me, so I kill him." "You're Good!" "Well then now I'm not."
But a few days ago, he came up with the final way that clearly showcases just how he treats my sessions.
Our foolhardy group enters a Drow rain water cistern situated within a ravine, the ceiling crumbles and they are 'trapped' within it. They may now explore the surrounding areas (and possibly a passage to the underworld) or try and find a way out of there.
The group advances easily, picking up a few magical items, a cursed cup 'of ruin' that attaches itself to one of the rogues in the party, and then reaches by taking a wrong turn the underground and from there proceed to get lost while fighting a couple of giant cave spiders and Cwdhena (or how it's written, anyway, monster!)
They find the entrance to a Dwarf Fortress (Winks) and open up the door through a secret lever. The next moment they enter and standing in front of them are two doors, and a gold and silver shield affixed to the wall which depicts a dwarf slicing the throat of a seal (winks again at DF). The problem arises when, after the two thieves claim that there are no traps, and that the shield is worth well in the 50000 gold coins, the Goliath decides to take it out from the wall.
He hears a sound 'clack' coming from the wall, and investigating it without removing the shield, realizes there is a sort of mechanism primed to the shield in question. (A metallic Hook) the moment passes with the thieves telling him 'LEAVE IT THERE, FOR GOD'S SAKE LEAVE IT THERE' and in the end the Goliath takes the shield out, the hooks retracts into the wall and with whirring noises and the likes, the traps are engaged.
Then the Goliath puts the shield, (Tower shield) on to try it.
Shield of Avarice, Cursed Item, may be removed by sacrificing 100000 Platinum coins or coming to term with one's own actions and accepting its consequences.
And here we begin the tale of said goliath, of INT 15 and WIS 13, who decides that no, he will remove that shield from his arm at all costs...because...
"I AM RIGHT AND THIS IS BAD, ME REMOVES!" *the tone of voice is that of a seven years old please*
"No, I don't want this, so i'm going to remove it no matter what."
In the end the goliath goes back to the entrance, where the dwarven fortress door is after all a portcullis of steel, and starts to open and close the door to 'mold the shield'. Of course magic, RD 30, the shield doesn't even suffer a dent.
The noises attract a patrol of drows, and the Goliath relents, returning to where the other were asleep and waking them up (Thus preventing the ranger from being able to cast his spells for the new day to come, of course) and after trying (without luck) to convince him to stop doing these idiotical things that would endanger the party, he follows the others throughout the dungeon. Instead of saying anything at all that would make sense, all that he does is pathetically complain about the unfairness of the cursed shield, whereas his party has: a cursed Derro that has become a vampire, a cursed catfolk that was a cannibal for a while, a cursed warrior that has been blinded and cannot see the living, a cursed thief who when he tries to lie suffers from incontinence (The party wizard is a bit of a petty guy) and yet no, the golden tower shield is unfair. He could fight with a longsword or something but no, he just places himself in defensive position during battles and sulks about the unfairness of it all.
Then, woe to the world, our proud party reaches the first houses of dwarves in the abandoned fortress. Written in Dwarf runes upon a statue of Moradin are the words:
"Steal my precious and you shall know my ire,
Steal my labor and you shall know my fury,
Steal from my creation (Dwarfs) and your very existence shall be unmade."
Which basically meant pretty clearly that depending on how much one stole, the level of the traps around the fortress would rise.
Our wonderful, smart, overly lobotomized Goliath first tries to uncork solidly closed magma conduits, bringing back the power in the entire fortress (which does seem a good thing, doesn't it?) and then decides to steal an Adamantium warhammer from within a shop to try and break the tower shield that he cannot remove. The next moment, of course, he activates the traps to their highest level. Then he drops the warhammer behind because well, it doesn't work so let's leave it there...
Alas it is NOT over yet, for passing by a small temple of Moradin, he says:
"Nah, that's just a small temple, what can the god do in there? I need a bigger one." (Because we all know gods have size complex of course)
Finally we reach a staircase, one that leads upwards and that has yet another one of those gold and silver shields against the wall.
Guess what the Goliath does? You got it, he touches it and the 'clack' is hear again. This time however he doesn't remove the shield and proceeds along the others while sulking.
They reach yet an even higher level, whereas the 'nobility' stood once with their homes. Here there is a bigger temple, and as he enters and grabs randomly stuff like gold and rotten water to pour on the altar, he claims:
"ohi! Please! You god! Take this off please? Yeah Pelor, talking to you!"
He gets thrown out by a good dose of 'divine retribution' from MORADIN.
And then, graciously, he decides that 'I have work tomorrow, going to sleep' and leaves.
The rest of the group sighs in relief, and we decide he needs to be killed slowly in his sleep.
We don't however, and after having calmed down, we come to decide that we'll keep him out of the next sessions of D&D until he either grows mentally or forever.
The problem is however that the guy 'is' my brother, so eventually he'll wear me out enough to come back and play.
Question being thus the following:
Barring killing the guy, how the hell can I manage to get him to understand that what he did and is doing is nothing short of being a spoiled brat who endangers and ruins the fun to the other member of the group?
At the moment the group (We're in six, seven with me) have decided to bar him from playing again with me as a Dungeon Master at present.
Taking suggestions on what to do to make him 'grow' at the very least while playing D&D...or is it a lost cause?

[nenjin]

Barring killing the guy, how the hell can I manage to get him to understand that what he did and is doing is nothing short of being a spoiled brat who endangers and ruins the fun to the other member of the group?
At the moment the group (We're in six, seven with me) have decided to bar him from playing again with me as a Dungeon Master at present.
Taking suggestions on what to do to make him 'grow' at the very least while playing D&D...or is it a lost cause?

It's really up to you, and how much you want your brother to be able to play in your sessions.

Some people are just not wired for every kind of game. The phrase "how he treats my sessions" struck me because I've often felt that way about a group of players who like to do things that sensitive GMs might consider running roughshod over their world and their ideas. GMs and their players have to be working toward roughly the same kind of experience, or they start rubbing each other the wrong way.

Being that he's family and all, maybe you should try to "reform him." But kind of like trying to tell a GF she needs to be someone else, telling a roleplayer that they're not roleplaying "the right way" is kind of a grievous offense. I come from a school that says table top games are 90% about the players, 10% about you. So while it's entirely possible he plays in a way that no one likes, is boorish and annoying and self-serving...is he really wrong playing that way?

That's why you need to decide how you ultimately feel about this. If his play style simply doesn't mesh well with your group, explain it to him with no BS exactly why you don't want him to return to group anymore. If you feel like he simply "doesn't get it", maybe explain how his version of fun isn't fun for anyone else except him, and leave the option open to him to bow out....or learn to start playing like less of a d-bag.

It's amazing how sometimes table top roleplaying can reduce people down to their core personality traits, and regress their behavior 10 years. It sounds like he's living his own personal power fantasy. (As are most people in RPGs.) Getting a cursed shield doesn't fit his narrative and so he's a little cranky about it.

[Caz]

That's hilarious.

I don't see what the problem is. He's just playing to his character. Since you're the DM you can give the consequences to him and jerryrig the other party members into surviving (maybe). If you're pissed off that people are playing  however they want, stop DMing or kick them from the game.

[shadenight123]

That's hilarious.

I don't see what the problem is. He's just playing to his character. Since you're the DM you can give the consequences to him and jerryrig the other party members into surviving (maybe). If you're pissed off that people are playing  however they want, stop DMing or kick them from the game.

Unfortunately, no.
If, let's say, he was playing his character, I would not be asking this.
His character should be a 'Devoted to the Stone Lord of the Mountain' Goliath whose path should be one of enlightenment like that of the Buddhists Monks.
Furthermore, this dialogue between him and the other players is what ultimately led to this situation:
"Come on Goliath, please just wait till we get out of here, we'll find a cleric or something in a town."
"NO."
"Please? You're risking all of our lives!"
"I DON'T LIKE THIS UEEE UEEE." (The uee sound is added for correct interpretation of childish tone)
"We're all going to die if you keep this up!"
"I'll just respawn with a different set of characteristic then to get this off."
And thus, we decided upon murder.
Furthermore 'Barbarian' doesn't mean 'Idiocy', and with Intelligence at Fifteen and Wisdom at Thirteen, he should be pretty intelligent and sage enough to know NOT to try and toy with traps in a dungeon.

@Nenjin.
I did try and explain, multiple times, that while I condone the occasional laughing jab I cannot stand to see an entire description of a scene, or an act, brought down into cracking jokes that remove the tension or suspense from a scene.
The other players got it.
Mind you, in my group there are recent additions who came to play the game for only six months, and yet they all learned far better and by now are actually core players, while my brother who plays this for just as long as I did instead still keeps on doing the same things time and time again.
In the end, I'll try and talk to him, but he simply refuses to see reason and refuses to see he is doing something wrong.

[nenjin]

Yeah like I said, some groups/GMs have a tone and not all players fit within that dynamic. Sort of like, if you went to a group of people that are mostly like your brother and started trying to play seriously....you'd be the asshole. Except your gameplay would probably be less disruptive, but whatever.

I've learned to by less domineering about how my games play out, but if he is the odd man out in your group and you've given him every opportunity to play in a way that meshes better...just tell him you'd prefer if he found another gaming group. The fun of the group is ultimately more important than any one person's fun, be that a player or the GM. If you tell him that and he still doesn't get it/respect it, you're probably wasting your time trying anything else.

[Heron TSG]

I feel your pain. My brother used to act similarly to this.

I don't see what the problem is. He's just playing to his character.

Funny thing about tabletop roleplaying games is that while you are filling a role, you made that role. He doesn't have to play a character that's a gigantic asshole.

My question here is whether his antics take of much of the group's time. If they do, remind him that he is not the only player, and that he's being a self-centered douchecanoe. Have your group vote on a new Rule #1: Don't be a dick. It's a standard rule all of my meatspace groups have agreed on. Everyone generally wants everyone else to have fun. People who vote against this rule are either needlessly contrary or... dicks.

If your brother is anything like mine, he probably thinks that you're not going to kick him out because you're kin. If he continues to act like that, kick him out of the group for a couple sessions. It'll either shock him into reforming or get him to stop playing with you. In your current situation, it sounds like either is acceptable.

[Scoops Novel]

Thank you for this opportunity.http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html

Seriously, getting him to read this comic, particularly the bits about Miko, might hammer home the message.

[Fniff]

Talking from a GM's perspective, it is really really hard to convince players to roleplay differently. If a player's into his comedy, he's going to roleplay comedic characters that make jokes even as another PC is dying. If a player doesn't like playing a certain genre, he is going to sit out on any and all RPs about that genre. Trying to convince them otherwise is just going to be awkward at best, and they may respond aggressively at worst. A good idea might be issuing challenges to him that give rewards of EXP or good items, though that may strike as basically bribery.

[Heron TSG]

Perspective is important, when it comes to changing a player. If you kick them out and recommend a few online games, they'll either

A. Learn to be a better player with people they don't know, stay, and leave them alone, or

B. Get kicked out of several more campaigns until they either give up or figure out they're doing it wrong.

[shadenight123]

The problem is that while some types of 'antics' can even be 'passed upon' others cannot.
Because one thing is saying in the middle of a dungeon: "Let's grapple the ceiling."
Another is making a lot of noise and reactivating ancient and forgotten machinery deep within a fortress filled with traps for the only purpose of trying something you know will not work! (IF it has RD 30, why do you insist on believing you can remove it by physically damaging it? Why?)
To that we must add that the 'joke' depends also on the situation.
Now, this here is something to laugh at, but at the moment realize that it did cost us the entire CAMPAIGN.
The half golden dragon half human emperor of the empire speaks to the adventurer's group:
"And there is a part of the ancient age that saw the battles between my father, the great Valtuzar and the enemy of Great Destruction that was not spoken of..."
And he came out with:
"You mean the moment when your mother and your father honked beneath the covers?"
The result was a dead character, a 'It was only a JOKE!' and a 'And the rest of the party gets the prison'.
That's the problem. One point is mistakenly pressing a lever that might be the start of a trap or that might not be the start of a trap, another point is seeing a big red button with the words 'ATTENTION DO NOT PUSH' and push it only to 'lol' at it.
It has already been decided to kick him out for a few sessions from playing, hoping he understands it. The question now however is: what to do to try and make him grow up?
Consider that he also plays online, and he remains the same. 'Douchebag stereotype'=I'm right guys, you should have done this. or that. I'm right and i know it. Yeah. Yes. I'm right.

Thank you for this opportunity.http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html

Seriously, getting him to read this comic, particularly the bits about Miko, might hammer home the message.

My lovely brother spent five years in France (Just like me) I came back home knowing English and French. He came back home with more suspensions from school than anything else. It's in English, thus he doesn't read it. (Pity, but everyone has that nasty little ignorant fool that somehow enters the family in someway)

Talking from a GM's perspective, it is really really hard to convince players to roleplay differently. If a player's into his comedy, he's going to roleplay comedic characters that make jokes even as another PC is dying. If a player doesn't like playing a certain genre, he is going to sit out on any and all RPs about that genre. Trying to convince them otherwise is just going to be awkward at best, and they may respond aggressively at worst. A good idea might be issuing challenges to him that give rewards of EXP or good items, though that may strike as basically bribery.

I always do prize out people who respect their inner characters and refuse to yield to peer pressure or to those who seek the easy road out.
For example, a Paladin that was in a tight spot was offered a chance out by a demon, by refusing the offer he got himself gifted with a ring of invisibility that helped him get out of the tight spot.
It's something my players know to expect of me, just like i usually pool in the middle of a dungeon quite an amount of money that is in truth a test on greed, and many times the choice is between freedom or money, and those who choose freedom usually always get a prize afterwards.

My brother's at work now, when he comes back I'll probably hear his brimstone and fire, but all that he claims as his defense (Through facebook) is the usual:
"I'm a barbarian, I do all I can to remove it."
With Int 15 and wisdom that high, 'barbarian' just refers to the class abilities and skills, it's not the 'PLAY AN IDIOT FOR FREE' class. Indians were rangers and barbarians, but that didn't make them stupid. The Vikings weren't stupid. A lot of barbarians weren't stupid, so why do people believe in it?

[shadenight123]

What would happen if, say, in the midst of such a session and your brother was being such as you described, you took his character sheet and, calmly, sundered it down the middle, then continued like he didn't exist?

I don't suppose I can offer any real advice; but I wish you the best and am thoroughly entertained by your stories in spite of the misfortune behind hem.

Since his enlightened ways bring him to change his character once per session, he has a Tablet and a digital sheet. He changes only the characteristic and the name, the modifiers set themselves and 'he's ready again!'
...

[nenjin]

The half golden dragon half human emperor of the empire speaks to the adventurer's group:
"And there is a part of the ancient age that saw the battles between my father, the great Valtuzar and the enemy of Great Destruction that was not spoken of..."
And he came out with:
"You mean the moment when your mother and your father honked beneath the covers?"

This example here kind of points to what I was saying earlier. A GM needs to be able to react to everything, no matter how inane, absurd or inappropriate it might be. Mouthing off to critical NPCs is, like, the bane of GMs who want to run a serious game because one ill-timed phrase can (logically) result in a total party kill. Wanting PCs to talk to NPCs "the right way" is almost always a recipe for disaster. Even if you expect the rest of your group to talk to them in a way you were expecting, all it takes is one player to derail the whole exercise.

I play with a group of guys who, in their free time, like to play LoL and troll the team they beat. They approach RPGs in many ways like a video game or a FPS match. They want their scenes to be epic, maybe even lulzy, and a lot of serious, highbrow roleplaying is something they're not super interested in. It used to bug the shit out of me before I realized "hey, this is the group you're rolling with." I had to learn how to enjoy watching them be empowered by their actions rather than resenting the way they did it. Sometimes every group needs a trouble maker because that's what stops a session from becoming the GM talking at people and them demurely doing what's being asked of them. Sometimes those problem characters can add life to a game even as they continue to bring problems. I mean, what group hasn't had "that dumbass barbarian who runs his mouth and presses the button when everyone is screaming at them not to"?

Just trying to give you some perspective. It's taken me some time to learn to respect players who make stuff happen, even if the stuff they do isn't what I expected and ideally not what I wanted to have happen. A group of wall flowers and GM "Yes Men" can make for as poor a roleplaying session as a group of people who ignore what you say and just act out their stupidest fantasies.

One thing it does sound like though; he's used to getting his way. As online players often are. If he doesn't have respect for the rules or doesn't even understand them in the first place, it can be like talking to a wall. In my group, people may act like dinks a lot of the time but at least they understand the rules to the extent they don't argue with facts. Facts like "it's cursed."

Since his enlightened ways bring him to change his character once per session, he has a Tablet and a digital sheet. He changes only the characteristic and the name, the modifiers set themselves and 'he's ready again!'

Ah. He's one of those guys. Some people do literally just like to roll dice, that's their whole motivation for RPGs. Playing a character has little to nothing to do with the experience for them.

I suppose you could go all passive-aggressive on him, and just treat his character like a non-entity. Like, when he speaks, NPCs simply ignore him like they would a barking French poodle. That can often send the message that either a) they're persona non-grata at the table or b) they get ignored when they're just saying stupid shit all the time.

[MagmaMcFry]

You can try making the game really boring for him. Give him an incentive to go on a solo adventure. Trick him into going into a swamp or a cave, where he can't make himself plot hooks, and where the monsters are very unsatisfying to kill (easy encounters, preferably gore-free and unintelligent, so he can't piss them off). Don't run both groups simultaneously, but switch the focus every so often, giving the main party much more playtime, based on "because they're more than you". He'll start paying attention to what the others are doing, and how much fun they're having without him. Eventually, forget about the solo adventure, suspending your brother in narrative limbo, but in such a way that he doesn't simply make a new character.

[Knight of Fools]

The best answer is always to talk with them. The Fear the Boot podcast has a lot of good advice about trouble players and how to deal with them, if you're interested in hearing from a group of guys and gals who prefer a slower, more role-play driven narrative. Their advice is the same as mine, though: Drop that sucker. Tell him to grow up or get out.

To me, it sounds like he has a lot of issues, but they can change if you can make him realize that they're issues and make him accept that they need to change. If you can't get him to reevaluate himself as a person, don't force your other friends to hang out with him. They don't deserve it, especially since they're a majority and he's just one guy ruining everything.

First and fore-most, he sees himself as the "main character". He has to react to everything you put in front of him, whether he should or not. He's the star in his own mind, and no one else matters. This plays out in two ways: In-game and around the table. He wants to see two things: What will the NPCs, characters, and universe do, and what will you and the players do? He wants people to react to whatever he does, because any attention he gets reinforces the idea that he's the center of the universe. It doesn't matter if it's negative or positive attention, because either is better than no attention at all.

Also, he's "that guy" when it comes to his characters. His characters are "his" in every sense of the word, and control is the name of the game here. Any outside influence that forces his character to do something he doesn't like or maims his character in some way removes his control. Almost every gamer I know has this to some degree (Even me), but most people can grin and bear it if their beloved character gets cursed or maimed. For your brother, restrictions aren't meant to be worked around, they're restricting in and of themselves, to the point of ruining his perception of his character. If there's no quick solution he'll complain, whine, and do stupid things to make others miserable as he is. He thinks that by throwing a tantrum and annoying everyone, he'll get what he wants. This actually won't change his behavior much, but it will change why he's doing something.

Which he will do partly because it gets a reaction, and because he thinks that if he's not having fun, no one else should. Even when he is enjoying himself, it'll usually be at the expense of other characters - He's a troll. This goes back to the world revolving around him: He wants a reaction, no matter what, and if his mood is negative, he wants that reaction to be negative.


Again, though, my suggestion is to drop him. If this is just a stage, he'll grow out of it. If it is who he is and he'll never grow out of it, you shouldn't have to deal with that anyways. Make it very clear why you're getting rid of him. If you don't tell him, he'll probably think it's some conspiracy and hate you for it. He'll still probably do that, but if you tell him he may have a moment of lucidity some day and turn his attitude around.

God speed.

[kaijyuu]

One of the players, my 'lovely' brother, (of 21 years old mind you) has become with the age rotten and arrogant. (Age does wonders to wine, not to people).
The result is that conversation with him are as if he were fifteen years old or less.

I'm just posting to say this is quite amusing. First you say that getting older makes someone worse, then say that they're acting younger than they are (implying it's a bad thing), thus saying both being young and being old are bad.

That's all. Continue with your regularly scheduled bad D&D player discussion.