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[Rowanas]

I too, was originally pissed off at steam, but to date, I've never had a real problem with them in practice. I'm always worried that my games collection could suddenly disappear or be denied to me one day, so I prefer to buy my games elsewhere.

[Leatra]

Valve isn't very good actually but when compared to the rest of the industry, they are like angels.

[fqllve]

The "voting with your wallet" thing isn't as simple as it's made out to be.  If you're a gamer, you probably have gamer friends.  If you have gamer friends, they probably pressure you to join them in the games that they play.  If you refuse to ever compromise with them, you're probably kind of a dick.  Chances are you're going to cave in and spend some time playing shitty games.  I absolutely hate League of Legends.  Seriously, that game pisses me off so much... but the majority of my gamer friends, including my own wife, play it every single night.  I would consider myself a horrible friend/husband if I never joined in.  Somebody mentioned much earlier in the thread that they're frustrated how most games seem imbalanced towards multiplayer focus anymore.  This is why!  They're very aware of the effect of social pressures.  After a while, my frustration builds up and I'm going to feel like raging about the gaming industry.

I don't think playing a game that you hate is part of being a good friend. Trying a game that you think you'll hate can be, but I don't think it makes you a dick if you don't do something you can't stand to do. In fact, I'd say it'd make your friends dicks if they expected you to do something you hate just because they do it. Being a good friend is not about spending as much time with your friends as possible, it's about being considerate of their desires, and if they're expecting you to do something that you hate, that's not being very considerate at all. As long as you're not berating the game and them for playing it I don't see why you'd be expected to play something you have nothing but distaste for.

It's different with your wife. But in that situation I would just talk with her, let her know how much I dislike the game and try to get her to do something else some nights. Marriage isn't about one-way concessions, and if you really can't stand the game ideally should would understand and forgive you for it.

Spoiler: tangent pet peeve rant about behavior that I see on the internet constantly that makes zero sense to me (click to show/hide)

Btw... I think it's absolutely shitty and one of the most condescending things possible when people take a large chunk of time out of their day to venture into a social space that no one is forcing them to participate in just to tell other people they're stupid for complaining about something.  It's essentially complaining about complaining (and I'm complaining about it).  What the fuck is wrong with people simply expressing something that's on their mind and bothering them?  Isn't that the whole point of communication?  It's especially stupid when someone tells others they're wasting their time complaining about something... I can't think of a more hypocritical thing to say.  If you think it's so trivial, then why are you bothering to go out of your way to disrupt it.  Either you love wasting your time so much that you'll waste it on things that you don't even care about, or you actually do care about it and just refuse to directly tell people you don't like what they're saying.  It's would be an entirely different thing if someone was standing on the sidewalk in front of your home screaming about the death of the gaming industry, but a forum thread?... please...

I'm not sure if this was directed at me in any way, but... Because sometimes that complaining is destructive. If you're complaint is that the gaming industry is dead because of x game not only do I think you're wrong, but I think your ideas are detrimental to the medium as a whole, and I have a right to say so.

A person cannot simply choose to avoid the culture that is all around them. You can choose not to play a game, but you can't choose to have friends, family, classmates, co-workers, etc who don't.  Many will participate simply to be involved.

You can avoid the culture around you. It's possible and while I'm not gonna lie and say I'm a paragon of discipline and morality because of it (because I'm absolutely not) I've been doing it for about as long as I remember. It's just not possible to avoid the culture and then participate in it, you can't have it both ways. Either you don't watch movies/play games/read books you don't like and therefore are unable to discuss them, or you do and you are. It's a choice, and if you don't think alienating yourself from the mainstream is worth it (and I can understand why not) that's fine, but the option is still there regardless.

The console thing is horrible.  Why do consoles exist at this point?  I can tell you why they did at one time.  Most people didn't have a home computer, weren't familiar enough with them to bother, consoles were cheaper, and internet wasn't a major draw.  Now every one of those circumstances has completely flipped.  Why do they exist now?  They're not even notably different from PCs anymore!

Have you ever spent an hour trying to get a game to work on PC? I already have this year (Crysis). How about on console? I have once (Saints Row) and I've owned a lot of consoles. Consoles exist because console games just work. It's the same philosophy that's behind Apple products. I agree that the line is blurring between PC and console in a bad way, but it's not like consoles don't have their place.

I'd also like to say that the research argument isn't completely sound.  Most games don't have decent demos these days.  Many don't have demos at all, and there have been many game demos noted as being completely unrepresentative of the final product.  You can't rely completely on word of mouth, either.  Fallout 3 is an example there.  I waited quite a while before buying it.  Everyone I knew liked it.  I'm still the only person I know who didn't like it.  I watched gameplay videos and everything.  It looked amazing.  I bought it and tried really, really hard to like it.  I did like it at first.  But it was after 10-15 hours that the blandness of the environment began to sink in...

I think enjoying a game for 10-15 hours is worth the money the game cost, especially if the price had gone down by the time you bought it. And sometimes you are going to buy things that end up disappointing you. It happens. If you care particularly about it you can do all kinds of research, up to and including pirating the game, but unless you're playing the pirated copy for 10 hours then I don't think you'll get rid of the experience, just mitigate it. Personally I don't mind so much about buying something I won't like, maybe because I have unreasonably high standards, and that nonchalance has led me to enjoy games I might otherwise not have, if I pirated everything first. Sometimes I'll buy a game and not like it. But I'll keep playing for a few hours because hey, I paid for it so I should at least give it a chance. And occasionally after the first few hours my feelings will change or the game itself will even improve. It works both ways and both options have their ups and downs. Either way you're not going to completely eradicate purchases that you're going to be disappointed in, though. And I really think 10-15 hours is sufficient for a game. I paid probably $30 for Fallout 3 and I don't think I got much more enjoyment out of it. It's an ok game, but I'm not sad I bought it.

Actually yes. That's what made me read that goddamn contract in first place. And I don't acess my steam account in like 8 months, because of that event. I mostly pirated games, and after I had problems with steam I now ONLY play pirated games.

Ok, so what was your problem? Did you ever contact Steam support? You can say that you shouldn't have to, but services are gonna have problems sometimes, and while it can be annoying to have to contact support, it's a completely different problem from them locking you out of your account. So did you even try to get the problem resolved or did you just default into a position that enjoys the benefits of an industry without actually contributing to it?

And what about indie games? Please tell me you are not pirating indie games. And if you are, please tell me you are at least donating to the creators.

[Neonivek]

And what about indie games? Please tell me you are not pirating indie games.

-_-

Ohh yes someone please *sarcasm* save the angelic beings known as indie games. They never did anyone wrong and never released faulty products.

I am sorry but this statement, your statement, is offensive to my logic.

Indie has no indication on the worth or value of a game. Any you derive from it is imagined and both independent and non-independent games take risks. To even pretend that indie games are somehow more valid then those that are not is such a terrible notion that it makes indie games seem WORSE as a result.

[fqllve]

...so because some of the games are bad that means it's ok to derive even the good ones of profits? If you enjoy an indie game then you should help fund it if you can. It's not like these guys have tons of money, they rely on every sale they can get. I think the same for AAA titles, but I don't think it's as important as your money isn't going to make or break them.

e: Ok you are reading in your own personal pet peeves into my statement that weren't there. Indie games = don't make as much money. Therefore if you like an indie game your money is more important to the continuation of that developer making games. Please don't insert ideologies you don't like into my posts because I don't think indie games are somehow "special." Just strapped for cash.

[Neonivek]

...so because some of the games are bad that means it's ok to derive even the good ones of profits? If you enjoy an indie game then you should help fund it if you can. It's not like these guys have tons of money, they rely on every sale they can get. I think the same for AAA titles, but I don't think it's as important as your money isn't going to make or break them.

Your statement was that for some reason indie games are much more deserving from their profits then Indie games.

I think the same for AAA titles, but I don't think it's as important as your money isn't going to make or break them

You are aware that there is such a thing as Indie AAAs.

As well games that arn't indie do not all fall under the AAA title. There are small companies that ask producers to fund games so they can put their games out.

Indie and Not indie is only seperated by one fact: "Who is paying for their development costs"... except that isn't entirely true because a lot of companies that get outside funding also put in their own money as well. Yet because they are not entirely funded by donations or by their own cache they are not indie.

[alexandertnt]

And what about indie games? Please tell me you are not pirating indie games.

-_-

Ohh yes someone please *sarcasm* save the angelic beings known as indie games. They never did anyone wrong and never released faulty products.

I am sorry but this statement, your statement, is offensive to my logic.

A large part of the reason that people are more against pirating indie games is not because "They never did anyone wrong and never released faulty products" (something nobody said, and is a misrepresentation of the argument -_-), but because Indie developers generally don't go around and offer DMCA takedowns, multi-million dollar lawsuits, or include invasive DRM. There is a certain ammount of trust that alot of prominant indie developers put into gamers not to pirate their games, and some people are unerstandably more uncomfortable about breaking this trust.

[fqllve]

Ok. Neonivek. You are still doing it. Please stop inserting ideologies I don't subscribe to into my posts. I do not think indie games deserve money more. I did not say that I would not say that. I think they need the money more. If you want to make a post about how people raise indie gaming onto a pedestal it shouldn't be on, feel free and I would actually AGREE with you, at least nominally. But please do not use me as the representative of the other side.

[Neonivek]

Ok. Neonivek. You are still doing it. Please stop inserting ideologies I don't subscribe to into my posts. I do not think indie games deserve money more. I did not say that I would not say that. I think they need money more. If you want to make a post about how people raise indie gaming onto a pedestal it shouldn't be on, feel free and I would actually AGREE with you, at least nominally. But please do not try to make it seem like I believe things I don't believe.

Then stop SAYING that. You want proof you outright said it?

And what about indie games? Please tell me you are not pirating indie games. And if you are, please tell me you are at least donating to the creators

There isn't a lot of ways to interpret what you actually feel. Which is the key, I know this isn't what you would argue but this is how you feel about Indie. Which is how most people feel about indie. It is an unconscious bias that isn't formalised.

Hense why I have to call people out on it whenever it pops up.

There is a certain ammount of trust that alot of prominant indie developers put into gamers not to pirate their games, and some people are unerstandably more uncomfortable about breaking this trust

It is more that small indie developers do not have the wiggle room to really do these things. They do not have the clout to lose sales intentionally for this kind of long term game. Nor do they have the ability to sell and use the things bigger companies have.

Have indie developers done that however? yes.

[fqllve]

This is the last time I'm going to say that. But that is YOUR interpretation of what I said. That statement does not make explicit my reasoning, you have no idea what my reasoning is and you are going on a witch hunt to find ideas you disagree with. My other posts made explicit the reasoning behind the statement, which you aren't arguing against so I'm left to guess you don't have a problem with it.

Please don't tell me what I feel. You know what I feel about indie gaming? I feel like it's pretentious not-actually-better than the large developers it so likes to vilify. I think it's overly concerned with annoying tropes that don't actually make the games any better or fun to play and only serve to appeal to a niche crowd that uses the indie platform to pretend they're superior to mainstream gamers, when they're subject to the same whims and bland stagnation as the big developers except they dress them up under a guise of creativity (which isn't present) and free thought.

However, I do think that there are innovative games in the indie scene because the fact that much lower quantities of money are involved risks are easier to take. There are innovative games put out by big publishers as well, but not the same kind of tech demo-esque play with a mechanic stuff like you see from smaller developers. I think games like that, while not necessarily fun in their own right, are important to innovation in the industry as a whole and I try to encourage that kind of thing when I see it.

But hey! You wouldn't have known all that unless I said it. So please do not pretend that you can understand my entire outlook on a subject from one simple line especially when you are ignoring the explication of the reasoning behind the line that I made clear in subsequent posts. The point is that pirating indie games you like is more self-destructive because those developers generally need the money more to keep operating. It's not always true, but it's true more often. I do not think it is ok to pirate from big developers either, I don't think it's any less wrong, personally, but I do think that the lost profits are less likely to hurt them and it's less harmful to your own interests.

And that is the last I'm going to say on the matter.

[alexandertnt]

Ok. Neonivek. You are still doing it. Please stop inserting ideologies I don't subscribe to into my posts. I do not think indie games deserve money more. I did not say that I would not say that. I think they need money more. If you want to make a post about how people raise indie gaming onto a pedestal it shouldn't be on, feel free and I would actually AGREE with you, at least nominally. But please do not try to make it seem like I believe things I don't believe.

Then stop SAYING that. You want proof you outright said it?

fqllve said that you should not pirate indie games, not giving a reason. You interpreted it to mean "you should not pirate indie games because they are indie".

And what about indie games? Please tell me you are not pirating indie games. And if you are, please tell me you are at least donating to the creators

There isn't a lot of ways to interpret what you actually feel. Which is the key, I know this isn't what you would argue but this is how you feel about Indie. Which is how most people feel about indie. It is an unconscious bias that isn't formalised.

Yes there is, as I said, he did not give reasons, you are trying to imply reasons (even if they were true, they certainly were not "outright") where no implication exists (suggestion, possibly, but certainly not an implication). Its best to avoid telling people how they feel.

It is more that small indie developers do not have the wiggle room to really do these things. They do not have the clout to lose sales intentionally for this kind of long term game. Nor do they have the ability to sell and use the things bigger companies have.

Have indie developers done that however? yes.

There have been some AAA publishers do the same thing, and I have seem similar responses from the gaming community (do not pirate because they are being nice etc). Implementing a DRM is not overly challenging given the over-the-counter DRM that is available. Plus some developers that release their games on steam, and also release non-steam versions for this reason etc.

I used the word "generally" to imply that some indie developers do use DRM (I put it in italics too) - it would be a ridiculous to say none did... *cough* miner wars *cough*.

[Neonivek]

Its best to avoid telling people how they feel

It really is and I'll call fault on that.

Though I'll keep my statements there since Indie conversations always migrate to how much better indie is.

[alexandertnt]

Though I'll keep my statements there since Indie conversations always migrate to how much better indie is.

This can (but not always) happen, yes, but fqllve engaged in no such conversation - the entire point to the rebuttals.

The console thing is horrible.  Why do consoles exist at this point?  I can tell you why they did at one time.  Most people didn't have a home computer, weren't familiar enough with them to bother, consoles were cheaper, and internet wasn't a major draw.  Now every one of those circumstances has completely flipped.  Why do they exist now?  They're not even notably different from PCs anymore!  The last two console generations have not been able to claim any strengths in comparison to PCs, only limitations.  They don't even have different games.  I think the only reason they exist is for the sake of a platform that can be controlled exclusively by the major publishers.  Nintendo's consoles are the only exception.  They at least try to offer a unique experience.

At the time of release, they get professional games and cost a non-ludricous amount (compare the price of an equivelant computer at the time of the consoles release, that PS3's processor was no Core 2 Duo). People keep them and continue to use them even now because they still have them.

MMOs are a subject that really pisses me off, actually.  Grind mechanics are fucking horrible.  Not just because of the addiction, but because they basically turn into a required time investment before you can even play the game.  The real game in an MMO is always at the max level.  That's where the social action is.  You can't play the game as it's meant to be played until you put in however many hundred hours to get there.  It's incredibly stupid.

I agree completely. MMO's generally give little at low level, driving players to engage in lazy gameplay for long periods of time just so the game can begin.

That and I have a personal preference against grind in any form - how people get entertainment from spending hours repeating the same simple activity over and over to increment an integer by one baffles and confuses me. But then again, I just don't like numbers in RPG's (bullcrap my characters strength is 17, I would rather have something more descriptive then be told outright the integers the game uses to calculate everything)

[Man of Paper]

The only MMO I've ever gotten into is EVE. And while it does have the "This skill needs x days to train" which means you need to be a member for y amount of months to be able to think about qualifying for a certain ship, I don't mind that. Mostly because when you get rolling in bank (only been playing for a month, broke 9 digits) you can buy more time with game moneys. So while there is forced investment it has the opportunity to pay itself off.

Not to mention that pulling a 100% in game scam is totally legit, and I'm something of a shady character. I used to play runescape and subsisted solely on scamming people.

Oh god I'm a terrible person.

[Graknorke]

Nah, EVE scams are amusing.

Like the story of the guy who infiltrated a rival group and got to, like, third in command, then at a specified time stole all of their money and undocked all of their ships. All of them.