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[Neonivek]

Are Paradox-published games "inside the market?" Because, if we're asking for examples of complexity in modern games, all their published global strategy games are way above my head in terms of complexity. Except MAYBE CK1. Maybe.

Well I am going to eliminate CK1 and 2 as exceptions.

Yet I know they made other games.

Ahh here we go Europe Universalis. I don't like that game but if I remember it correctly it counts. I was surprised they made more. Though I never played the latest and for all I know it could be the Simcity societies of the Europa series.

[Leatra]

IMHO that's why older BW games were better than the new (they always had the simlish speaking minor NPCs to free up space and dollars for the major ones) and why Dragon Age Origins was so much better than Dragonage II.

I didn't like DAO or DA2. I didn't see any depth in DAO's story. It was just Song of Ice and Fire meets Wheel of Time meets Every Bioware Game Ever. I agree that in the short term voiced dialogue has had some poor effects on the scope of characterization in games. But I also think a lot of older RPGs had terrible writing particularly because they didn't know when to shut up and because every single character spoke in the same vernacular as the guy who wrote the script. They might have had good stories, but they didn't have good dialogue. (Planescape: Torment, huge exception)

I liked DA 2 better. I tend to dislike games with a black vs white morality. You are fighting against abominations and try to save the world. Same old shit.

In DA 2, mages are uprising against templars. There is no black or white side. Everyone is gray. I really liked the plot of DA 2 better. You can side with a faction (even though siding with mages is more logical) since it isn't monsters vs everyone else. Also, I was probably the only one who didn't bitch about how game takes place in only one city. I'm tired of playing games where you travel all the time. It was a good change of pace to play a protagonist who settles in a city and lives in there. They could make the city a lot bigger though.


Love it or hate it. They changed a lot of things in the sequel rather than doing it the CoD way, just throwing the same old shit into the game and calling it a new game.

[Neonivek]

Well given that the best part of Neverwinter nights IMO... was the city itself.

[fqllve]

And how many games that have similar storytelling depth can you name that aren't Fallout? Any game, any era

You mean other then just about any classical RPG that features depth?

What like... Ultima 4? Because I wouldn't even put the other Ultima games up there with Fallout. Otherwise what old RPGs? The vast majority I can think of hardly had any plot at all. Roguelikes, Wizardry, TES Arena, the AD&D games, Might and Magic. Those had like zero depth. I suppose you might include Baldur's Gate, but I don't really think that had any more depth of storytelling than Dragon Age, it was just way more deep into niche fantasy.

Love it or hate it. They changed a lot of things in the sequel rather than doing it the CoD way, just throwing the same old shit into the game and calling it a new game.

Yeah, I'll give you that. And I'll also give you that I never really gave it a fair shake since the first game left such a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe I'll go back and give it another shot.

[Psyckosama]

The storytelling mechanic is very similar, it just happens to use Mass Effect's dialogue system rather than the older style. It certainly isn't exactly similar, with it's emphasis on being streamlined and typecasting the character, but it was written by the same guy as Fallout 2 and the depth of story and character interaction are certainly closer to Fallout than they are to anything Bioware has ever done, especially Mass Effect.

Honestly, mass effects dialogue system is half the problem. I loathe the wheel.

And how many games that have similar storytelling depth can you name that aren't Fallout? Any game, any era. Hard Mode: you can't include any other Black Isle/Obsidian games. Ultra Hard Mode: No Troika games either (since they basically branched off Black Isle).

Does Wasteland count? 

I can't think of any. So is that a problem with modern gaming or is it a problem with storytelling in games in general?

Nor can I, but I think half of that is the fact I'm a dedicated Black Isles/Obsidian/Troika fanboy and damned proud of it...

Oh god no. The only one of those games I'd even consider recommending is Ni no Kuni.

Fair enough. Personally I like Xcom and find GTA clones to be a guilty pleasure... Prototype 2 though was a disgrace plot wise.

I didn't like DAO or DA2. I didn't see any depth in DAO's story. It was just Song of Ice and Fire meets Wheel of Time meets Every Bioware Game Ever.

Hey, id you're going to rip people off at least rip off the best!

I agree that in the short term voiced dialogue has had some poor effects on the scope of characterization in games.

I agree and feel it will be the same until we have perfectly realistic real-time voice synthesis.

But I also think a lot of older RPGs had terrible writing particularly because they didn't know when to shut up and because every single character spoke in the same vernacular as the guy who wrote the script. They might have had good stories, but they didn't have good dialogue. (Planescape: Torment, huge exception)

In that case you're just claiming lazy writing...

And yes, Torment is the gold standard but not the ONLY example.

I also tend to think Bioware's old games are overrated in general. It might just be because I'm an Obsidian fanboy (to the extent that I'm a fanboy at all) but I would rate almost all their games as firmly average in the story department.

What is the sound of one hand not disagreeing?

Still, they're lightyears beyond Bethesda...

[Leatra]

Love it or hate it. They changed a lot of things in the sequel rather than doing it the CoD way, just throwing the same old shit into the game and calling it a new game.

Yeah, I'll give you that. And I'll also give you that I never really gave it a fair shake since the first game left such a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe I'll go back and give it another shot.

I didn't finished the first game because I got bored halfway. DA2 is really worth giving a shot, just for the sake of the awesome plot, despite how people seem to hate it. If you are gonna play it, play it with a Snarky! Hawke It gets much more funnier it the expansion packs.

Hawke: Looks like the duke... *puts on sunglasses* has fallen from grace.
YEEEAAAAAAAAAAAH!

[Psyckosama]

Love it or hate it. They changed a lot of things in the sequel rather than doing it the CoD way, just throwing the same old shit into the game and calling it a new game.

I have to half-disagree.

As a sequel to Dragon Age, yes, they changed a lot of things. The problem is in doing so the changes they made seemed to be aimed at making it into Mass Effect Fantasy.

[Neonivek]

What like... Ultima 4?

So, you list an exception immediately?

I wouldn't even put the other Ultima games up there with Fallout

That is mostly because the ultima series was always about introspection then the outward conflict. It never told you how you are supposed to feel and what you are supposed to take from the story.

The only other game that does that I can think of... is... Planescape Torment.

[fqllve]

What like... Ultima 4?

So, you list an exception immediately?

I, above all things, try to be fair.

Seriously though, that's one game. If one modern exception doesn't count, why should one retro exception? The point is that games with good writing have always been the exception.

Does Wasteland count? 

I've never actually even heard of it. Is it any good storytelling-wise?

Fair enough. Personally I like Xcom and find GTA clones to be a guilty pleasure... Prototype 2 though was a disgrace plot wise.

I just recently started playing the XCOM games, so I'm not really in a position to recommend them (especially the newest which I haven't tried yet). I like a couple of the others, but I try to only recommend games I think are truly good.

In that case you're just claiming lazy writing...

And yes, Torment is the gold standard but not the ONLY example.

I'm not sure I can actually think of another game of the era that I would praise the dialogue in. But more importantly, I think that voiced dialogue has done a lot to abate those problems. Writers are less long-winded and characters more distinct, if only because of the actors.

Still, they're lightyears beyond Bethesda...

No disagreement there. Although the place where I think we would disagree is that I think the storytelling in their modern games is just about as average as it ever was.

[Neonivek]

Bethesda are not that bad at story telling. In fact there are some hints that they may know their stuff.

The issue is that they always chose sacrifice the story because it gets in the way of the gameplay.

If one modern exception doesn't count, why should one retro exception? The point is that games with good writing have always been the exception

The difference is in games that tried to have good writing. Versus ones that settled on being mediocre.

I mean even Albion gone for the gold. It didn't succeed but I certainly appreciated its never seen again conversation system that would NEVER EVER be used again today.

and DANG was it tough.

Also one exception? Ultima 5, 6, and 7 (but not 8 and 9) also certainly count.

[fqllve]

Bethesda are not that bad at story telling. In fact there are some hints that they may know their stuff.

Their storytelling is usually ok (although I thought FO3 was 4/10 storywise), but their dialogue is atrocious. It might be some of the worst dialogue I've ever come across in anything.

Also one exception? Ultima 5, 6, and 7 (but not 8 and 9) also certainly count.

Just Ultima games though? That's not very indicative of a depth that was absent.

And honestly, how can you tell that they tried? Other than Baldur's Gate none of those games seemed to try at all, and I think Bioware still tries. It's not like they were ever trying to be High Art, they just embrace the mainstream more now rather than niche. I don't see how that's a drop in quality, just a change in kind.

[SalmonGod]

Not a fan of complexity for its own sake, myself.  I like gameplay elements to have powerful dynamics that enable emergent complexity.  Easy to play, but with deeply explorable possibilities.

I do think Fallout 1/2 were genuinely great games.  They were slow paced, but they gave you meaningful choices in a way that's extremely rare these days.  Not just in storytelling, but in character-building, too.  It didn't seem like there was any "wrong" way to build your character.  I also remember the tactics being very satisfying.  I sunk a lot of time into figuring out how to get the exact outcome I wanted in each encounter, which was usually all about keeping Dogmeat alive.  I couldn't stand to see that dog die   And it did involve juggling a lot of variables -- which targets were highest priority, how to influence everyone to move around in certain ways to manage threat ranges, and where high risk/high reward, steady damage, or using rare items was most appropriate.

Fallout 3 didn't bother me because of what it tried to be, but just because it felt lazy.  The FPS gameplay felt clumsy/unresponsive, which made use of the VATS system a requirement in any difficult fight, but VATS horribly broke the game and made everything stupidly easy and unsatisfying.  Would have been alright if the setting was more interesting, but that seemed to rely completely on a handful of well-crafted set pieces, while the entire rest of the game had zero character.  I probably would have liked it more, but I played this game immediately after finishing Stalker for the first time, which by far surpassed Fallout 3 at everything it tried to do.  After a few hours into the game, I found myself thinking "Ugh... I should just go back to Stalker..."  and eventually that's what I did.

I can't really think of any recent games that live up to what Fallout was... but I don't doubt that they're out there.  I just don't play many RPGs anymore, due to life circumstances.  When I play that type of game, I like to knock them out as quickly as possible through long, hyper-focused sessions.  Family makes that difficult.

Perhaps one of the problems we're running into here regarding "vision" is that gaming has simply matured.  Innovation isn't as easy as it used to be.  Publishers pushing for easy profits are definitely a factor, but there's also just less unexplored territory than there used to be.  I doubt anyone can come up with a game idea at this point that isn't easily expressed in terms of other games that are at least 5 years old.  I think the majority of fresh genre-busters we're going to see in the future will be because of technology enabling new things, rather than because of new ideas.

[Psyckosama]

Their storytelling is usually ok (although I thought FO3 was 4/10 storywise),

Their ideas aren't always bad, but FO3 was horrific. I mean really... Project Purity was moronic.

The way you remove fallout from water is simple.

Sand, gravel, sand, gravel, sand gravel, sand, charcoal...

Done.

Filtered water.

but their dialogue is atrocious. It might be some of the worst dialogue I've ever come across in anything.

Agreed. They come up with passable ideas but their execution was awful.

And honestly, how can you tell that they tried? Other than Baldur's Gate none of those games seemed to try at all, and I think Bioware still tries. It's not like they were ever trying to be High Art, they just embrace the mainstream more now rather than niche. I don't see how that's a drop in quality, just a change in kind.

Embracing the Mainstream more often than not translates to pandering to the lowest common denominator. Also, they're now accountable to EA and all the horrors that entails.

[Leatra]

Bethesda isn't good at making responsive combat. When you slice a guy with a damn katana, you expect something more than the guy you hit moonwalking back a little...

[fqllve]

Embracing the Mainstream more often than not translates to pandering to the lowest common denominator. Also, they're now accountable to EA and all the horrors that entails.

Eh, maybe it's just because my tastes are pretentious a fuck, but I don't really see it. Their stuff has always been kinda LCD, it's just they operated more firmly in their genres than they do now. Baldur's Gate was high fantasy LCD, KOTOR was Star Wars LCD (although they were both exceptionally high quality examples of LCD). There's nothing wrong with that, but I don't think their stories were full of high ideas that they've somehow dropped. But again, I'm one of those jerks who reads lit for fun, so my perspective is all kinds of warped on that.

Honestly though, I think the story in ME2 was better than in ME1. Now now! Before you tear me apart, I didn't like the story in ME2, it didn't appeal to me, but ME1 was basically generic modern scifi following the same [Prologue with action -> Long Area with Little Action that Establishes Plot -> Multiple Discrete Mission Areas Available in Any Order]. ME2 actually broke from that, the first Bioware game that did in a very long time, so that says to me they were working outside their storytelling comfort zones. I haven't played ME3 yet, but I expect it's more of that rather than the tired old Bioware Formula, which is a huge step in my mind.

I'm not sure whether I prefer a completely unremarkable plot or one that appeals to me in no way shape or form though...

And it did involve juggling a lot of variables -- which targets were highest priority, how to influence everyone to move around in certain ways to manage threat ranges, and where high risk/high reward, steady damage, or using rare items was most appropriate.

I don't think that's anything more than you'd expect from any RPG though. The movement was a nice touch, but I think I'd already been spoiled by Ogre Battle. :p

Bethesda isn't good at making responsive combat. When you slice a guy with a damn katana, you expect something more than the guy you hit moonwalking back a little...

This. Also, more health does not mean more challenging.

Don't get me wrong though, I enjoy the TES games (Skyrim is to date the only game I've ever preordered). The combat needs work, but it's pretty much the only source for something like that, and the world design is awesome. Except in Oblivion, we don't talk about Oblivion. ("Oblivion? Wait do you mean Shivering Isles? What was that the expansion pack or something?")