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[Psyckosama]

Bethesda isn't good at making responsive combat. When you slice a guy with a damn katana, you expect something more than the guy you hit moonwalking back a little...

The way I've always seen it is they defend themselves when criticized about being poor RPGs by saying "We're a first person action game with roleplaying elements!" while defending themselves about being a poor action game by saying "but we're actually an RPG that just happens to have first person combat!" all the while letting their fanbase patch their games for them....

Frankly I'm wondering who made the deal with satan that keeps that company afloat.

[Neonivek]

Not a fan of complexity for its own sake, myself.  I like gameplay elements to have powerful dynamics that enable emergent complexity.  Easy to play, but with deeply explorable possibilities

You know what feature attracted me to Nethack originally?

The fact that if you didn't wear protective gloves while hangling a dangerous orb... that you would get poisoned.

Nothing else.

[SalmonGod]

When I need to describe the gameplay depth of the roguelike genre to someone uninitiated, I tell them about all the things you can do with a cockatrice in Nethack.

[alexandertnt]

The fact that if you didn't wear protective gloves while hangling a dangerous orb... that you would get poisoned.

Don't forget the cockatrice corpses (bloody cockatrice corpses). Picking one of those up is what made me realise the game developers had thought of everything.

There was just something nice about playing a game which seems less... "mechanical" (in the sense that there are more than just the standard statistics at work, there a special and appropriate consequences for specific actions).

I would love to see this level of intricacy in more games.

EDIT: someone mentioned the cockatrice before me. Batters up!

[Neonivek]

I don't know I guess what I am just boiling everything down to is that...

There is maybe too much streamlining in the modern era.

While it is true it removed many of the redundencies and terrible UI choices of past games that even I cannot defend (Really? I have to cycle between all my items slowly Lands of Lore?) they also lost a lot of complexity as well and games seem to be moving further and further away from it.

I mean a lot of the bumps you got with old games were there because there simply wasn't another way to do it. If you want the player to be able to do a lot of things then you need a way to give them the ability to do a lot of things. Thus you sacrifice a bit of UI or add Parser.

This loss of complexity is simple. Complexity comes with two things: One is that complexity means that you raise the bar for players to be able to play and understand the second is that with this complexity comes a sacrifice of streamlined gameplay. The Casual market are full of people who just want to have fun, in fact I consider Demon/dark souls to be an abberation, and any barriers to this is going to set up alarms and some of them won't buy. When the casual market is the overwhelming majority of that market then you get the situation we are in now.

As well there is a third factor. The Companies caught into what the great selling game formula is. When games were relatively new you HAD to just give people great games and you had to explore many kinds of games (I outright say that many classics wouldn't survive today. Not because they arn't any good but because they don't fit in anymore). There just wasn't any other way. Now it is about giving people familiar elements.

There is nothing that cannot be streamlined, even streamlined plots. Streamlined MMOs (there is no gametype more boring then MMOs right now)

I am waiting for the Casual market to get bored, Capcom+EA's incompetence should help things along, because once that happens maybe we will actually start seeing games trying to explore once again... exactly what can be done with videogames without them being either exceptions or extreme outliers.

[Spitfire]

So I just skimmed the thread... Has Knights of the Old Republic (2003) as a great story-telling RPG been mentioned? Also by Bioware.

[Neonivek]

So I just skimmed the thread... Has Knights of the Old Republic (2003) as a great story-telling RPG been mentioned? Also by Bioware.

Some people think so.

I think it has good characters but its story is not really all that good. As well it follows the Bioware formula to a T, which gets tiring.

It is a good game but not really a great game. Though to be specific it is an Ok game with a few great characters thrown in.

Gameplay wise it is also quite solid, I have no complaints. It certainly doesn't get REALLY dull like Jade Empire does, though it does eventually just boil down to "Jedi beat all!"

[alexandertnt]

There is maybe too much streamlining in the modern era.

I don't think that older games were more complex than modern games in general. But modern games have sort of stagnated in regards to intricacy and are not more complex than earlier games. This makes me sad given the massively greater ammount of resources available (only a few games, like DF make use of the resources available to form more complex games. Most of the time the extra power is used for graphics, physics (which to its credit can be used to form more complexity. Usually is only used for shinies) etc.

[fqllve]

I think it has good characters but its story is not really all that good. As well it follows the Bioware formula to a T, which gets tiring.

It's really the game that codified the Bioware formula though, so I'm not sure if I should receive a pass or be held accountable for that.

Generally my opinion on Bioware is that they have good storytelling for games, but have average storytelling when judged against the art in general. That's subjective, but I don't think any of their games compare to Fallout when it comes to depth of the storytelling mechanics, objectively.

I am waiting for the Casual market to get bored, Capcom+EA's incompetence should help things along, because once that happens maybe we will actually start seeing games trying to explore once again... exactly what can be done with videogames without them being either exceptions or extreme outliers.

They won't get bored. Did they get bored of movies? Did they get bored of books? They won't get bored.

Those games are still out there, by the way. They just aren't made for the mainstream anymore, but you have to remember, old PC games weren't for the mainstream, they were hardcore niche. Consoles weren't even as mainstream as they are now. So what you're really complaining about is that people are making mainstream PC games, I don't see that as a problem because not only are some of those games fun to play, but I don't feel like there's been any shortage of good games. And I feel like there's more complexity now even, because there are fewer limitations of hardware. I mean, just look at DF. How could that have happened 20 years ago? Sure it doesn't have any real market penetration, but did Ultima have any real market penetration? Look at Project Eternity by Obsidian, look at Age of Decadence, both those games promise complexity, at least as much as I can recall being in older games.

I've been playing a game called Resonance of Fate lately, and if you like JRPGs this is hands down the most complex one I have ever played. It plays like a combination of a SRPG and a more traditional one with multiple movement and damage mechanics that all come together intricately. It is literally the most complex JRPG I have ever played and is leagues more sophisticated than anything that came out 20 years ago.

I feel like people are taking for granted that complex games were never actually mainstream and then complain that they aren't mainstream anymore. They're still being made and they'll continue to be made as long as people enjoy them, you just have to know where to look. Roguelikes are still the best source of mechanical complexity in RPGs, and to my mind that has always been the case. Sure you can point to that Mystery Dungeon stuff (which I actually enjoy occasionally, plus my little brother plays roguelikes now? awesome) but stuff like Incursion, IVAN, and Cataclysm all have mechanical complexity and are recent games.

[Neonivek]

Did they get bored of movies?

Yeah... yeah they did.

I don't think that older games were more complex than modern games in general

If not in general, the fact that you get quite a few games that are a bit more complex.

It is literally the most complex JRPG I have ever played and is leagues more sophisticated than anything that came out 20 years ago

Keep playing. I never beat that game because it felt very samey rather quickly (that and I had the ultimate gun rather quickly)

I feel like people are taking for granted that complex games were never actually mainstream and then complain that they aren't mainstream anymore

Here is the thing. The Mainstream didn't really exist in the early days of gaming. At least not to the same extent. 7th Guest a puzzle game with a creepy story and atmosphere was what was "mainstream" when CDs became popular.

Back then games like Simearth, which REALLY didn't hold your hand, actually could achieve a following.

Hey you remember Trauma Team? Yeah... They made a series of realistic surgery games a long time ago incase we forget "Life and Death" (Under the Knife and The Brain). They even have a survival shooter where you have to perform real medical proceedures to treat injuries. Leg infected? Looks like you will have to amputate (dang that game is tough)

[Tilla]

So I just skimmed the thread... Has Knights of the Old Republic (2003) as a great story-telling RPG been mentioned? Also by Bioware.

Sequel is way, waaaaay better written. It just didn't have time to get finished as completely as they liked due to LucasArts being batshit insane.

[Shadowlord]

Uh. KOTOR2 was like a voyage through the rantings of an insane incoherent storyteller who couldn't manage to make anything connect to anything else (except connections to the previous game), or conclude any part of the story, and who dropped major plots and plot points without explanation and pretended never to have mentioned them at all.

In short, it was a terrible game.

[fqllve]

Yeah... yeah they did.

Which is why people complain about all the shitty movies that are made? Which is why Netflix is so popular? I'm sorry but saying that casual viewers got bored of movies is pretty crazy to me.

If not in general, the fact that you get quite a few games that are a bit more complex.

I disagree, and in fact, the more I think about it the more I start to think games are on average more complex. Most games have more gameplay mechanics than they used to, more games are starting to present multiple ways to complete objectives, stories are becoming more detailed and are presenting characters with greater fidelity, and accoutrements like physics are becoming more and more intricate. I think games of the past were just on a whole more challenging (not always in good ways) and that, like you said, games are becoming more streamlined, which makes it appear as if they've lost complexity when they really haven't.

Keep playing. I never beat that game because it felt very samey rather quickly (that and I had the ultimate gun rather quickly)

That doesn't discount the fact the game is more complex that other JRPGs by a wide margin. I think JRPGs in general are a good example of a genre that has actually seen greatly increasing complexity.

Here is the thing. The Mainstream didn't really exist in the early days of gaming. At least not to the same extent. 7th Guest a puzzle game with a creepy story and atmosphere was what was "mainstream" when CDs became popular.

Consoles were the mainstream in the early days of the industry. They still are, but to a lesser extent. And I would say The 7th Guest didn't hold a candle to Myst as far as mainstream appeal went.

That's my point though. Even when gaming was niche complex games were still only a small subset of that. Complexity has never been widely popular in any medium, and examples where it was are the exception.

Uh. KOTOR2 was like a voyage through the rantings of an insane incoherent storyteller who couldn't manage to make anything connect to anything else (except connections to the previous game), or conclude any part of the story, and who dropped major plots and plot points without explanation and pretended never to have mentioned them at all.

I'm not sure how you even got that impression of the game. The story makes perfect sense, even if it's rushed through in some places, and every planet has its point, and its conclusion. The only conclusion that's lacking is the main one, for reasons we all know by now.

[alexandertnt]

If not in general, the fact that you get quite a few games that are a bit more complex.

I don't see it. There have been games like Minecraft allowing people to build ingame computers, Kerbal Space Program, allowing people to ad-hoc giant, complex physics simulated rockets (similar games from an earlier times only allowed you to choose a few parameters, computers were too slow to handle proper physics), DF, which allows you to bash peoples skull in with their own arm etc.

I think that perhats the complexity of games has gone up. Most AAA games have not embraced complexity, unfortunetely. But there are quite a few interesting games now that could not have existed 20, or even 10 years ago.

Although my definition of complex is almost void of any consideration for plot/storyline.

I also remeber alot of earlier RPG's consisting mostly of an excuse plot, and dumping you in a world to grind for hours on end, all with familier (boring, and sometimes seemingly arbitrary) tabletop rules. RPG's with brilliant plots were definetely the exception. much like they are now.

Did they get bored of movies?

Yeah... yeah they did.

They did? I am not much of a movie fan but it would seem the vast majority of people go out and watch the occasional movie with friends for social events, not really for the movie per se (casual style, much like myself).

[Neonivek]

The sheer amount of things I'd have to do to continue my point certainly doesn't make this arguement worth it.

Not to mention the number of Minecraft fans ready to kill me.

I am bowing out. The second I had to argue against Dwarf Fortress, Minecraft, and Kerble is the moment I know this is just going to go down hill.

Trying to argue how much Minecraft is an exception and that in the past these 'exceptions' weren't as big of exceptions and in fact you used to be able to EXPECT a good story after a certain date (or if you go back even FURTHER where games could even be all story).

---

Though if you want one misconception. The quality of games on average is greater in modern times.

Yet that is because there are less terrible-bad games now adays then in the past.

---

Now of course then we also get into difficulty.

It is weird how being "tough" is a selling point now adays.

Now this point is MUCH easier to defend since the only "exception" I can think of is Kerble. Since Minecraft is pathetically easy and Dwarf Fortress is also currently easy.