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[Ukrainian Ranger]

kahn1234

Why  do you think that expanding is way easier than creating. What make you  so sure about that?

Modifying the whole plane is hard. Creating something from nothing but mana is hard. And we'll need to create more something from nothing than we did when we created that world

I am sure that expanding the afterlife is hard, expensive, risky. That's logical. Especially considering game balance. +270 mana per day can't come easily

And your discussing style is getting annoying

Don't like my words and think that I am a brick wall? Then, please,  ignore me. You will not make me change my mind and make suggest anything else with reasoning like that. Huge fonts, "You are wrong", "it's useless" " We should do that because it's great", "A is cool(easy\good\great\obivious) because A is coll(easy\good\great\obvious)"  and borderline insults will not make me take your side, ever

And the most importantly, unlike you,  I don't take sides here, I try to provide some logical arguments why I think that  something is bad or good

[kahn1234]

kahn1234

Why  do you think that expanding is way easier than creating. What make you  so sure about that?

Modifying the whole plane is hard. Creating something from nothing but mana is hard. And we'll need to create more something from nothing than we did when we created that world

I am sure that expanding the afterlife is hard, expensive, risky. That's logical. Especially considering game balance. +270 mana per day can't come easily

And your discussing style is getting annoying

Don't like my words and think that I am a brick wall? Then, please,  ignore me. You will not make me change my mind and make suggest anything else with reasoning like that. Huge fonts, "You are wrong", "it's useless" " We should do that because it's great", "A is cool(easy\good\great\obivious) because A is coll(easy\good\great\obvious)"  and borderline insults will not make me take your side, ever

And the most importantly, unlike you,  I don't take sides here, I try to provide some logical arguments why I think that  something is bad or good

Because, in real life, expanding something, especially something you already have a solid base to work from, is much easier than creating something from nothing.

and no, we arent going to be creating something from nothing. we arent creating a second afterlife. we are expanding. We dont have to expand every way at the same time if we dont want, for the sake of safety, but that will take longer.

and what makes you think its so hard? has Corrupter explicitly said that creating the afterlife was hard? that expanding will be hard?

the only reason you assume it was had is because we (a very inexperienced, newborn god) took 1 day to create a whole new realm from nothing, whilst usin up a respectable amount of mana.

And we weren't attacked, even though we found a crack in the barrier. laer on, which leads me to assume that the barrier isnt the only thing holding back voidspawn and enemies.

I do like your ideas. However many of them are really for when we are much more established.

I like the idea about the boon competition where the untalented get their boon taken away and the most talented get upgraded to the far more useful major/potent boons. We could do this after we expand the afterlife.

and expanding the afterlife is not an optional extra. it needs to be done, sooner rather than later.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Because, in real life, expanding something, especially something you already have a solid base to work from, is much easier than creating something from nothing.

Not always, try to expand a working aircraft. Or ship. Or house.  And expand not 10%, but  something like 1000%

I do like your ideas. However many of them are really for when we are much more established.

Again no reasons... That's sound like let's do it later... because let's do it later
To estabilish ourself we need to do something, not wait that will happen itself while we do only megaprojects...

When will you accept "extreme" investment  30 mana for boon competition? well we'll generate 1000 mana daily? 10 000 ? 100 000 ?
It's a minor investment now, later it will be extratiny, anmd i'll demand 100 boons, 1000 boons, 10000 boons

and expanding the afterlife is not an optional extra. it needs to be done, sooner rather than later.

There are different ways to expand it. aiming to *3 muliplier is a wrong way, because will likely need a huge investment  and doing many small projects is a more practical way

[kahn1234]

Because, in real life, expanding something, especially something you already have a solid base to work from, is much easier than creating something from nothing.

Not always, try to expand a working aircraft. Or ship. Or house.  And expand not 10%, but  something like 1000%

I do like your ideas. However many of them are really for when we are much more established.

Again no reasons... That's sound like let's do it later... because let's do it later
To estabilish ourself we need to do something, not wait that will happen itself while we do only megaprojects...

Nothing i have proposed comes close to being a mega-project. I want more industry, more agriculture (Meat and dairy products, spices and dyes, bone-sheep for ivory trade etc) and other things. But expanding the afterlife now takes precedent so that we can increase our mana income (allowing us to do more) and keep our people happy.

When will you accept "extreme" investment  30 mana for boon competition? well we'll generate 1000 mana daily? 10 000 ? 100 000 ?
It's a minor investment now, later it will be extratiny, anmd i'll demand 100 boons, 1000 boons, 10000 boons

When we aren't dancing on a knife edge, like we are at the moment.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

We can't expand afterlife if we spend 30 mana?
And how my suggestion make it harder to improve industry? Will it delay it somehow?

And expanding afterlife is a mega-project.
Fortress is a mega project

[kahn1234]

We can't expand afterlife if we spend 30 mana?
And how my suggestion make it harder to improve industry? Will it delay it somehow?

And expanding afterlife is a mega-project.
Fortress is a mega project

If you really wont back down, ten give 3-5 people minor boons, train them and then upgrade them to major or potent boons.

If its life boons they'd easily become overseers of our agriculture and cash crops. I never said i was against the whole idea, i would have rather waited till we have an income of over 500 mana to start giving out more boons.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

When we'll have 500, we should spend at least 100 ( better 200) on boons,  I gonna bet that this will be rejected by you.
Also I gonna bet that you'll advocate improving existing boons( well, when we'll have 500 mana we should do that, but not instead many minor and major boons)

Also, having so few people with very potent boons and none with minor will lead to the very unequal  society... majority are nothing but mana generators and some are their de facto rulers with major magic power ( of cause there are dictator above them)

BTW, that notion to have only potent boons is another part of - only big scale is important, small things aren't needed at all.

But I am eagerly awaiting when afterlife expansion will start, expecting many "I told you" moments

[kahn1234]

When we'll have 500, we should spend at least 100 ( better 200) on boons,  I gonna bet that this will be rejected by you.
Also I gonna bet that you'll advocate improving existing boons( well, when we'll have 500 mana we should do that, but not instead many minor and major boons)

Also, having so few people with very potent boons and none with minor will lead to the very unequal  society... majority are nothing but mana generators and some are their de facto rulers with major magic power ( of cause there are dictator above them)

BTW, that notion to have only potent boons is another part of - only big scale is important, small things aren't needed at all.

But I am eagerly awaiting when afterlife expansion will start, expecting many "I told you" moments

We DO NOT need so many damn boons. why do we need those boons? tell me, why?

or agriculture? we could have normal people (or Saps/Stems) tending the fields and if anything went wrong a small squad of 5 major or potent (or a mix) life boon users set things right!

For industry? We dont have any industry focused spheres unless you count fire, and that wont help much unless we have major or potent (minor boon would be too weak) boon users tending forge and furnace fires reducing the need for fuel. even then, we wouldn't need more than 5 fire booners.

and giving more than 2 people chaos boons of any strength is just asking for trouble.

Minor boons aren't needed because they are too weak.

Minor life boon? creates a small bush, maybe helps grow things very slowly.
Minor fire boon? 5 uses per day (useless in battle). Not much use otherwise.
Minor Chaos? dont know really, we haven't had anyone with a minor chaos boon, but i'd wager something would go wrong. it IS chaos after all....

End point is, they are all too useless. either give people major or potent boons or dont give any at all.


Ideally we want an income of at least 350-400 mana per day, optimum.

[Talvara]

maybe you two should consider some time-out, The next update or so should go pretty straight forward.

the two of you are just beating the same horse over and over and getting a little personal there.

discussion is fine, even heated discussion is fine. but the accusations and assumptions aren't good form.
let it rest for a bit and things play out. maybe things will come up that change the discussion.

[Remuthra]

Lets just deal with the afterlife. just expanding it without new unique features is fine for the time being.

it also doesn't have to be done in one big sitting, we can spend the time we have to spare and come back to it later.

just get it over with so it isn't an issue anymore. it needs to happen and I see no reason to put it off.

about trade. I would probably get different metals then copper. we can mine copper ourselves. the other ores we cannot.

+1 to all that. Also, it's really, imo, better to give a handpicked few of our followers much better boons, but it is just not okay to spend 1/5 or more of our income on boons. We need all the mana we can get, it's our disadvantage. Also, it's not "let's do it later... because let's do it later" it's "let's do it later... because we have much more efficient things to do with the mana. In the end, it's better to get more dragons then it is to get more life boons.

[gman8181]

Wow you guys have really been going at it while I was gone.  Keep in mind there isn't anything wrong with pushing your ideas, just don't take it to the extreme and try and force your views on others.  Just explain why you think you have a good idea and use logic, facts, etc to try and bring people over to your way of thinking.  Also please for all of our sake don't start throwing around insults when people don't agree with you (that goes for everyone and if I'm ever guilty of insulting you please tell me so).

Now I'm not really going to address everything that has been mentioned, just a couple that seem more relevant to me.

I think it's been heavily implied that creatures we build from the ground up are, essentially, hollow. Soulless. Like the rest of the animals and plants out there.
Which is why I actively propose GMing our followers. We could make them plant, or bug people. Either way it'd be awesome. And hey, dedicated followers like a bunch of dryad dudes could be useful. See how the orcs work with Grumugga?
Come on, lets at least modify one kid. Not even that much, either. Just give the fetus.. I dunno.. green flame-style red hair(no abilities, just pigment)? We have to see if we can even pull this off, and if so, to what extent we can drag this before we end up with a soulless being. And hey, even if a worshipper is born without a soul, with any luck they're still intelligent, right?
Like the difference between a machine with sentimental value, and one without.

I was the first person to suggest modifying our human followers and I had (-1's) rain down on me like there was no tomorrow, which is why I brought back up the idea of just making our own followers from scratch.

I would be happy with either choice and I think we need to do one or the other if we really want to become powerful and capable of defending our followers from the huge number of enemies allied against us.

WE WENT OVER THIS!!!

we cannot make followers. they need a soul.

we cant....i repeat WE CANT.... make souls, and, therefore, followers.

Stop bringing this up. we're going to end up arguing in circles at this rate.

In response to this, I'd recommend looking at this post by Corruptor that was made about two posts ahead of yours:

To answer some questions that seem to have come up:
-Grumugga didn't create the Orc race, currently she is merely the only God of Orcs.
-Tiberius's soul stopped giving you mana because the mana in question is going towards powering his abilities. Installing a soul in a body that needs less upkeep might still give you mana, depending on the quality of the soul in question.
-Creating a new race is a difficult endeavor, and would take a substantial amount of both souls and mana as raw materials. A natural 20 would probably be needed as well, unless the God in question had very high skill levels. How exactly this could be achieved - well I'll leave that up to your creativity. Altering an existing race, on the other hand, is quite easier. Goblins originated as altered Orcs, for example.

Last but not least, update otw.

So yeah we might not be able to directly create souls but we can create a race (albeit not without much difficulty), which thus indirectly produces souls.  According to Corruptor, creating a race would require us to put in an initial investment of souls and a substantial amount at that, along with and unspecified amount of mana and raw materials.

We have souls and mana although quite possible not enough and we have abundant raw materials.  Once we create a race, we would gain back our investment of souls as our new race reproduces and creates more children who also have souls, paying off in the mid to long term depending on the speed at which they reproduce.

Corruptor told us that creating a race is expensive and difficult, possibly requiring us to roll a 20.  He also said that modifying a race is much easier and also probably cheaper.  We can see this exemplified by the fact that our neighbor chaos god modified humans to make a special race of snakemen and that some god (most likely the orc god) made goblins from orcs.  If these gods could modify a race for their own purposes then we could also do it and most likely with relative ease based off our chaos and life domains which both relate to creating and changing things.

Keeping all this in mind, I think we should modify humans as I previously suggested and as a long term goal, see about creating a new race of plant people.

[kaian-a-coel]

I'm agreeing with the gentleman above me.

[kytuzian]

Boons:

I think we need to be more generous, but not too generous. We can't hold that standard for long, giving a fifth of our people boons is crazy. And we need to attract people to our village. If possible, make the Stem's sentient and give them free will.

I support free will because:

1) It will allow them to improvise if necessary on the battlefield, which is valuable.
2) We've established that we are a Chaos god of freedom, so this can be considered roleplaying too.
3) It will allow them to fit in among the other races.

[kahn1234]

Wow you guys have really been going at it while I was gone.  Keep in mind there isn't anything wrong with pushing your ideas, just don't take it to the extreme and try and force your views on others.  Just explain why you think you have a good idea and use logic, facts, etc to try and bring people over to your way of thinking.  Also please for all of our sake don't start throwing around insults when people don't agree with you (that goes for everyone and if I'm ever guilty of insulting you please tell me so).

Now I'm not really going to address everything that has been mentioned, just a couple that seem more relevant to me.

I think it's been heavily implied that creatures we build from the ground up are, essentially, hollow. Soulless. Like the rest of the animals and plants out there.
Which is why I actively propose GMing our followers. We could make them plant, or bug people. Either way it'd be awesome. And hey, dedicated followers like a bunch of dryad dudes could be useful. See how the orcs work with Grumugga?
Come on, lets at least modify one kid. Not even that much, either. Just give the fetus.. I dunno.. green flame-style red hair(no abilities, just pigment)? We have to see if we can even pull this off, and if so, to what extent we can drag this before we end up with a soulless being. And hey, even if a worshipper is born without a soul, with any luck they're still intelligent, right?
Like the difference between a machine with sentimental value, and one without.

I was the first person to suggest modifying our human followers and I had (-1's) rain down on me like there was no tomorrow, which is why I brought back up the idea of just making our own followers from scratch.

I would be happy with either choice and I think we need to do one or the other if we really want to become powerful and capable of defending our followers from the huge number of enemies allied against us.

WE WENT OVER THIS!!!

we cannot make followers. they need a soul.

we cant....i repeat WE CANT.... make souls, and, therefore, followers.

Stop bringing this up. we're going to end up arguing in circles at this rate.

In response to this, I'd recommend looking at this post by Corruptor that was made about two posts ahead of yours:

To answer some questions that seem to have come up:
-Grumugga didn't create the Orc race, currently she is merely the only God of Orcs.
-Tiberius's soul stopped giving you mana because the mana in question is going towards powering his abilities. Installing a soul in a body that needs less upkeep might still give you mana, depending on the quality of the soul in question.
-Creating a new race is a difficult endeavor, and would take a substantial amount of both souls and mana as raw materials. A natural 20 would probably be needed as well, unless the God in question had very high skill levels. How exactly this could be achieved - well I'll leave that up to your creativity. Altering an existing race, on the other hand, is quite easier. Goblins originated as altered Orcs, for example.

Last but not least, update otw.

So yeah we might not be able to directly create souls but we can create a race (albeit not without much difficulty), which thus indirectly produces souls.  According to Corruptor, creating a race would require us to put in an initial investment of souls and a substantial amount at that, along with and unspecified amount of mana and raw materials.

We have souls and mana although quite possible not enough and we have abundant raw materials.  Once we create a race, we would gain back our investment of souls as our new race reproduces and creates more children who also have souls, paying off in the mid to long term depending on the speed at which they reproduce.

Corruptor told us that creating a race is expensive and difficult, possibly requiring us to roll a 20.  He also said that modifying a race is much easier and also probably cheaper.  We can see this exemplified by the fact that our neighbor chaos god modified humans to make a special race of snakemen and that some god (most likely the orc god) made goblins from orcs.  If these gods could modify a race for their own purposes then we could also do it and most likely with relative ease based off our chaos and life domains which both relate to creating and changing things.

Keeping all this in mind, I think we should modify humans as I previously suggested and as a long term goal, see about creating a new race of plant people.

I think Krait said that his snakemen dont produce mana for him, and we dont know if Goblins do either.

Personally, i think modifying humans is a very bad idea due to the sheer effort needed and the high possibility something will go wrong.

[Remuthra]

Wow you guys have really been going at it while I was gone.  Keep in mind there isn't anything wrong with pushing your ideas, just don't take it to the extreme and try and force your views on others.  Just explain why you think you have a good idea and use logic, facts, etc to try and bring people over to your way of thinking.  Also please for all of our sake don't start throwing around insults when people don't agree with you (that goes for everyone and if I'm ever guilty of insulting you please tell me so).

Now I'm not really going to address everything that has been mentioned, just a couple that seem more relevant to me.

I think it's been heavily implied that creatures we build from the ground up are, essentially, hollow. Soulless. Like the rest of the animals and plants out there.
Which is why I actively propose GMing our followers. We could make them plant, or bug people. Either way it'd be awesome. And hey, dedicated followers like a bunch of dryad dudes could be useful. See how the orcs work with Grumugga?
Come on, lets at least modify one kid. Not even that much, either. Just give the fetus.. I dunno.. green flame-style red hair(no abilities, just pigment)? We have to see if we can even pull this off, and if so, to what extent we can drag this before we end up with a soulless being. And hey, even if a worshipper is born without a soul, with any luck they're still intelligent, right?
Like the difference between a machine with sentimental value, and one without.

I was the first person to suggest modifying our human followers and I had (-1's) rain down on me like there was no tomorrow, which is why I brought back up the idea of just making our own followers from scratch.

I would be happy with either choice and I think we need to do one or the other if we really want to become powerful and capable of defending our followers from the huge number of enemies allied against us.

WE WENT OVER THIS!!!

we cannot make followers. they need a soul.

we cant....i repeat WE CANT.... make souls, and, therefore, followers.

Stop bringing this up. we're going to end up arguing in circles at this rate.

In response to this, I'd recommend looking at this post by Corruptor that was made about two posts ahead of yours:

To answer some questions that seem to have come up:
-Grumugga didn't create the Orc race, currently she is merely the only God of Orcs.
-Tiberius's soul stopped giving you mana because the mana in question is going towards powering his abilities. Installing a soul in a body that needs less upkeep might still give you mana, depending on the quality of the soul in question.
-Creating a new race is a difficult endeavor, and would take a substantial amount of both souls and mana as raw materials. A natural 20 would probably be needed as well, unless the God in question had very high skill levels. How exactly this could be achieved - well I'll leave that up to your creativity. Altering an existing race, on the other hand, is quite easier. Goblins originated as altered Orcs, for example.

Last but not least, update otw.

So yeah we might not be able to directly create souls but we can create a race (albeit not without much difficulty), which thus indirectly produces souls.  According to Corruptor, creating a race would require us to put in an initial investment of souls and a substantial amount at that, along with and unspecified amount of mana and raw materials.

We have souls and mana although quite possible not enough and we have abundant raw materials.  Once we create a race, we would gain back our investment of souls as our new race reproduces and creates more children who also have souls, paying off in the mid to long term depending on the speed at which they reproduce.

Corruptor told us that creating a race is expensive and difficult, possibly requiring us to roll a 20.  He also said that modifying a race is much easier and also probably cheaper.  We can see this exemplified by the fact that our neighbor chaos god modified humans to make a special race of snakemen and that some god (most likely the orc god) made goblins from orcs.  If these gods could modify a race for their own purposes then we could also do it and most likely with relative ease based off our chaos and life domains which both relate to creating and changing things.

Keeping all this in mind, I think we should modify humans as I previously suggested and as a long term goal, see about creating a new race of plant people.

I think Krait said that his snakemen dont produce mana for him, and we dont know if Goblins do either.

Personally, i think modifying humans is a very bad idea due to the sheer effort needed and the high possibility something will go wrong.

+1 to that.