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[MonkeyHead]

I like how this graph leaves out the 2003 gun control law because it would hurt its case

The 1997 law criminalized ownership of all non-historical handguns, so how much more could you want?

Not leaving out relevant data just because...

[Mictlantecuhtli]

3. India-Pakistan....if shit gets real, we unfortunately have to get involved. That's simply too big of a potential clusterfuck to ignore. I don't think we should take a side or arm either side but be fully engaged in trying to prevent all-out war of effect a truce if there is an outbreak of war.

As both of their ally and the premier remaining world nuclear power, we reserve the right to nuke their nuclear facilities to glass at the start to make them play fair.

Neither of those countries should even have nuclear weapons in the first place, then the prospect of a Kashmir war wouldn't be so horrifying to those of us not wanting WW3.

Of course, I've never agreed with nuclear weaponry at all. No one should have that. This is not Dwarf Fortress. No one requires a 'fuck the world' button.

[RedKing]

I think some of this discussion highlights one of the glaring problems with the US: a paucity of data. Because the GOP (acting on behalf of the NRA) has explicitly banned the use of Federal money to fund research into gun violence in the United States, for years now. One of the things Obama did with his exeutive orders was to tell the GOP to go fuck itself and mandated CDC to research the issue and provided funding. It's difficult to have a good debate when the only data available for the US comes from think-tanks with agendas, or academic studies which are limited in scope.

[Loud Whispers]

I think some of this discussion highlights one of the glaring problems with the US: a paucity of data. Because the GOP (acting on behalf of the NRA) has explicitly banned the use of Federal money to fund research into gun violence in the United States, for years now. One of the things Obama did with his exeutive orders was to tell the GOP to go fuck itself and mandated CDC to research the issue and provided funding. It's difficult to have a good debate when the only data available for the US comes from think-tanks with agendas, or academic studies which are limited in scope.

Or data from other countries applied to something it clearly shouldn't be.

[Sheb]

BTW, I just watched the Daily Show, and their segment on the ATF is hilarious. Especially the part about their Youtube channel where they advice arms sellers not to sell to drunk people. I said advice, because apprently ti's not illegal.

It'd be scary as hell if I wasn't on the other side of the Atlantic.

[Nadaka]

BTW, I just watched the Daily Show, and their segment on the ATF is hilarious. Especially the part about their Youtube channel where they advice arms sellers not to sell to drunk people. I said advice, because apprently ti's not illegal.

It'd be scary as hell if I wasn't on the other side of the Atlantic.

I saw it too. And quite frankly the first thing we really should be doing is undoing the restrictions placed on the ability of law enforcement to investigate these kinds of things.

[RedKing]

BTW, I just watched the Daily Show, and their segment on the ATF is hilarious. Especially the part about their Youtube channel where they advice arms sellers not to sell to drunk people. I said advice, because apprently ti's not illegal.

It'd be scary as hell if I wasn't on the other side of the Atlantic.

Oh....dude. I'm so watching that as soon as I get home.

[Darvi]

The conversation has started, and we're off to a deplorable start

This should be this thread's official tagline or something.

[GreatJustice]

Britain didn't seem to solve its murder rate with a gun ban.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Please if you use Britain as an example get it from British or international sources.


UK - 1.2 homicides per 100,000 people
US - 4.8 per 100,000 people


"The number of murders and killings in England and Wales has fallen to the lowest level in nearly 30 years, Office for National Statistics figures show."

Of course, this is totally ignoring the fact that the UK has had significantly lower rates of murder than the US since before gun control measures were introduced, so comparing the two in that way is largely pointless. On the other hand, the UK has higher rates of, for example, robbery, assault, and rape, though they're measured differently so even using those would be counterproductive.

That specific point, however, is largely irrelevant unless homicide rates relationship to gun control is parabolic or something.

Now, if you do a little bit of history research, you can observe that murder rates in the US have very specific correlations with historical events. Observe:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sources are in the chart, so if you don't have substantial criticisms, don't bother. Anyhow, crime increases from 1900 to 1916, and drops during WW1, which makes a fair bit of sense (if people are being drafted they aren't murdering/being murdered at home). Crime increases substantially when the troops return home, and increases even more when Prohibition is put in place and organized crime becomes prevalent. Hmmm, I wonder if that will ever come up again. Anyhow, murder rates decline dramatically when prohibition is repealed in 1934, and these rates remain low until the late 1960s and early 1970s. By a complete coincidence, this period also coincides with (A) social upheaval that was far more strongly felt in the US than in any other countries and (B) The ramping up of the Drug War. Weird that murder rates would increase at the same time as the modern form of prohibition that empowers violent cartels is put into place. Why, it's almost like deja vu!

[Leafsnail]

Ultimately though there has to be some reason for the US having such a ridiculously high murder rate compared to basically every other country with comparable wealth

[GlyphGryph]

As that article makes clear, of law enforcement system is pretty much extremely fucked up too.

I'm fine with the NRA defending guns, but the whole making it impossible for the government to catch criminals actually breaking the laws they say are fine is kind of fucked up.

[GreatJustice]

As that article makes clear, of law enforcement system is pretty much extremely fucked up too.

I'm fine with the NRA defending guns, but the whole making it impossible for the government to catch criminals actually breaking the laws they say are fine is kind of fucked up.

Actually, the NRA supports a "sweet spot" of gun control these days. They have, on occasion, actually tried to support gun control in states moving farther away from that "sweet spot"

[GlyphGryph]

How else do you explain the NRA legislative push to not allow any sort of electronic record keeping, to mandate paper filing instead?

That's nothing but an attempt to subvert the law by keeping the agency overworked and the laws underenforced. Many of their other pushes have been in the same direction (such as the lobbying requiring the ATF head to be approved and the the restrictions meaning the ATF can't even do basic tracking requirements)

[Nadaka]

Technically they are opposing national databases in order to placate the people who are afraid the government is going to use that database to track them down and confiscate their guns.

[GreatJustice]

How else do you explain the NRA legislative push to not allow any sort of electronic record keeping, to mandate paper filing instead?

That's nothing but an attempt to subvert the law by keeping the agency overworked and the laws underenforced. Many of their other pushes have been in the same direction (such as the lobbying requiring the ATF head to be approved and the the restrictions meaning the ATF can't even do basic tracking requirements)

Because they're weird like that, and the stuff they support has very little rhyme or reason to it (eg. "Instead of increasing/loosening the restrictions on guns, lets just pay billions of dollars for ARMED GUARDS at every school!") in the context of their claimed goals. If you want consistent (if radical) organizations against gun control, there's always the Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership or the Gun Owners of America.