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Author Topic: Lordship: A Suggestion Game  (Read 328205 times)

GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1770 on: March 03, 2013, 04:51:42 pm »

When family is involved, the Count has a good excuse for invading us like he's likely wanted to since we found that mine. "I'm sorry, Your Highness, but when they took my daughter's husband I just couldn't stand it--I ordered the attack in a rage, and before you know it, his little militia is crushed and his head on a pole. Well, since he died without an heir, I guess that means his lands go to his liege..."

And assassination is worse. While it's probably possible to find a stealthy assassin if we had to, it's likely too expensive and definitely a bad idea. The assassin and anyone else who catches a drift of it will have GREAT blackmail material; discovering that we had his son-in-law killed would bring the Count's wrath on us faster than anything short of going into his house and smacking him in the face.

Only if we keep them allies, which requires not looking like a sphincter.
They were practically screaming to fight back for us when the assassins came. They said if it came to war, they were behind us. They probably think we're a sphincter right now for not doing something. A distended sphincter, to be precise, quite worn and used.
Well, there's a difference between "someone" and "unsanctioned kidnapping of the count's son-in-law," now isn't there?
Just ask the duke for permission or something first is all I'm saying.

If the Count attacks us, it is treason. We are a servant of the king, an unjustified attack on a kings vassal is an attack on the king himself.
As noted, the Count could argue a pretty good justification if we arrested the wool merchant right now.

Quote
If we go to an authority, either the count, his marshal or the duke, we are doing things legitimately, as long as we do things legitimately we have the legal right to demand justice, any refusal to allow us to do so is very bad form, outright illegal if he handles that wrong.
I do not think we should kidnap the merchant, we should charge him, doing so forces our enemies into a situation they can't win in.
Also, the merchant may very well give up the count in exchange for leniency.
This merchant tried to *kill* us, and now is sending armed men into our lands, i would be surprised if he could worm himself out of that, counts son in law or no.
I agree with this.
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Gervassen

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1771 on: March 03, 2013, 04:58:43 pm »

I still maintain that abducting the count's family member will net us a war and a game over.

That's no spirit of !!fun!! in you. My opinion would be: we play it out passionately to the end, even if that became a delightful game of being Robin Hood in the forest, dispossessed of our lands.

And what if it came to war? We've got the Duke moderately on our side, our neighbors stoutly on our side, the Duke's niece smitten with us, half the Count's vassals are probably also victims of his brutishness.

The count has 35 heavy cavalry and twice that light cavalry--but the light cavalry is his vassals, which include Denton and Percival, and perhaps others who will peel off. His tactics emphasize these, rather than infantry which are just his mop-up crew.
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Mlamlah

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1772 on: March 03, 2013, 05:03:07 pm »

If the Count attacks us, it is treason. We are a servant of the king, an unjustified attack on a kings vassal is an attack on the king himself. If we go to an authority, either the count, his marshal or the duke, we are doing things legitimately, as long as we do things legitimately we have the legal right to demand justice, any refusal to allow us to do so is very bad form, outright illegal if he handles that wrong.
I do not think we should kidnap the merchant, we should charge him, doing so forces our enemies into a situation they can't win in.
Also, the merchant may very well give up the count in exchange for leniency.
This merchant tried to *kill* us, and now is sending armed men into our lands, i would be surprised if he could worm himself out of that, counts son in law or no.
If the count attacks us succesfully, "finds" some documents somewhere that indicate rebellious things, and wins before anyone can intervene, nothing happens. The Duke won't risk a civil war over one lowly knight.

Remember that the links are pretty weak. We got some peasants saying that he did so, nothing else. Now, give a peasant a bag full of money ,and he says what you want. The merchant just has to deny all the claims, no more, no less.

Quote
The wool merchant will crack because he's the front man. He knows what he is, and what being caught means, and if he doesn't we can make him.

Why would he. We got no real proof. We got 2 peasants, but can you trust those. See, for the merchant there are 2 options:
-Talk: Sentence + wrath of Count and supporters
-Don't talk: No sentence + wrath of the knight you tried to kill
Also, we can't make him talk during the trial. We don't have the right to keep him in our custody*, so we'll need to surrender the prisoner to either the Duke or the count. Now, it's kinda hard to torture people during a formal trial.

*Read, don't have the political power to afford doing that without being called a blackmailing traitor

Because, really medieval Judgings are decided by Money, political power and military force. WHo's right and who's wrong has nothing to do with it.

He needs to justify an attack before he did it, it would quickly become out of his control, as powers higher and lower began to involve themselves in the affair. Civil war is serious business, and it's unlikely he would be beyond scrutiny in such a situation.
Someone has tried to kill us multiple times, each could be linked to the merchant and the count. Even the circumstantial evidence against the count implies that it is someone who is related to the count, like a certain ambitious merchant. This is not something that can just be wished away, the evidence we have corroborates, and an accusation from a nobleman is a big deal that has to be investigated.
Who said anything about torturing the poor fool? We have him given to a higher authority, (eg. the Duke) once he's arrested. I'm suggesting arrest, not kidnap.
Medieval trials did attempt justice, particularly with honest nobles involved, the duke is an honest noble and i believe we can trust him to see this through.
This isn't just *insert generic medieval area here*, there is a structure to this world beyond history, perhaps we should stop slavishly pointing out generalized details of medieval culture when the setting and specific individuals involved are more relevant.
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tryrar

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1773 on: March 03, 2013, 05:04:57 pm »

If the Count attacks us, it is treason. We are a servant of the king, an unjustified attack on a kings vassal is an attack on the king himself. If we go to an authority, either the count, his marshal or the duke, we are doing things legitimately, as long as we do things legitimately we have the legal right to demand justice, any refusal to allow us to do so is very bad form, outright illegal if he handles that wrong.
I do not think we should kidnap the merchant, we should charge him, doing so forces our enemies into a situation they can't win in.
Also, the merchant may very well give up the count in exchange for leniency.
This merchant tried to *kill* us, and now is sending armed men into our lands, i would be surprised if he could worm himself out of that, counts son in law or no.
If the count attacks us succesfully, "finds" some documents somewhere that indicate rebellious things, and wins before anyone can intervene, nothing happens. The Duke won't risk a civil war over one lowly knight.

Remember that the links are pretty weak. We got some peasants saying that he did so, nothing else. Now, give a peasant a bag full of money ,and he says what you want. The merchant just has to deny all the claims, no more, no less.

Quote
The wool merchant will crack because he's the front man. He knows what he is, and what being caught means, and if he doesn't we can make him.

Why would he. We got no real proof. We got 2 peasants, but can you trust those. See, for the merchant there are 2 options:
-Talk: Sentence + wrath of Count and supporters
-Don't talk: No sentence + wrath of the knight you tried to kill
Also, we can't make him talk during the trial. We don't have the right to keep him in our custody*, so we'll need to surrender the prisoner to either the Duke or the count. Now, it's kinda hard to torture people during a formal trial.

*Read, don't have the political power to afford doing that without being called a blackmailing traitor

Because, really medieval Judgings are decided by Money, political power and military force. WHo's right and who's wrong has nothing to do with it.

He needs to justify an attack before he did it, it would quickly become out of his control, as powers higher and lower began to involve themselves in the affair. Civil war is serious business, and it's unlikely he would be beyond scrutiny in such a situation.
Someone has tried to kill us multiple times, each could be linked to the merchant and the count. Even the circumstantial evidence against the count implies that it is someone who is related to the count, like a certain ambitious merchant. This is not something that can just be wished away, the evidence we have corroborates, and an accusation from a nobleman is a big deal that has to be investigated.
Who said anything about torturing the poor fool? We have him given to a higher authority, (eg. the Duke) once he's arrested. I'm suggesting arrest, not kidnap.
Medieval trials did attempt justice, particularly with honest nobles involved, the duke is an honest noble and i believe we can trust him to see this through.
This isn't just *insert generic medieval area here*, there is a structure to this world beyond history, perhaps we should stop slavishly pointing out generalized details of medieval culture when the setting and specific individuals involved are more relevant.

As long as it results in shutting down the merchant I'm for this.
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No. I suppose there are similarities, but I'm fairly certain angry birds doesn't let me charge into a battalion of knights with a car made of circular saws.

Mlamlah

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1774 on: March 03, 2013, 05:11:30 pm »

This isn't just *insert generic medieval area here*, there is a structure to this world beyond history, perhaps we should stop slavishly pointing out generalized details of medieval culture when the setting and specific individuals involved are more relevant.

I didn't mean this to be snarky by the way. I'm guilty of it sometimes too, i just think maybe we should give mal a little more artistic license than we have been, because often enough we'll justify something by saying "this setting is based on medieval Britain, -insert thing here- was true of Britain, therefore it must be true of this setting.
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Gervassen

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1775 on: March 03, 2013, 05:16:46 pm »

---
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 06:46:29 pm by Gervassen »
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Talvara

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1776 on: March 03, 2013, 05:19:13 pm »

I'm prettymuch with Mlamlah here.

I dont really have anything against a kidnap but only if its okayed by the duke. (at which point it becomes more like an arrest then a kidnap I guess?) if he is summoned to court or anything the count could dispose of the wool merchant and put us back quite a few squares.
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Gervassen

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1777 on: March 03, 2013, 05:23:55 pm »

I'm suggesting arrest, not kidnap.
Medieval trials did attempt justice, particularly with honest nobles involved, the duke is an honest noble and i believe we can trust him to see this through.
This isn't just *insert generic medieval area here*, there is a structure to this world beyond history, perhaps we should stop slavishly pointing out generalized details of medieval culture when the setting and specific individuals involved are more relevant.

As long as it results in shutting down the merchant I'm for this.

+1

We arrest him. We say some officious-sounding stuff and make it clear that we're arresting him. Then we take him to the Duke.
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tryrar

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1778 on: March 03, 2013, 05:24:56 pm »

Note we try to arrest him when he's not on the count's lands so he can't interfere
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This fort really does sit on the event horizon of madness and catastrophe
No. I suppose there are similarities, but I'm fairly certain angry birds doesn't let me charge into a battalion of knights with a car made of circular saws.

GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1779 on: March 03, 2013, 05:41:10 pm »

He needs to justify an attack before he did it, it would quickly become out of his control, as powers higher and lower began to involve themselves in the affair. Civil war is serious business, and it's unlikely he would be beyond scrutiny in such a situation.
Shouldn't we worry about the same? You know, justify the arrest before making it?

Quote
Someone has tried to kill us multiple times, each could be linked to the merchant and the count. Even the circumstantial evidence against the count implies that it is someone who is related to the count, like a certain ambitious merchant. This is not something that can just be wished away, the evidence we have corroborates, and an accusation from a nobleman is a big deal that has to be investigated.
Who said anything about torturing the poor fool? We have him given to a higher authority, (eg. the Duke) once he's arrested. I'm suggesting arrest, not kidnap.
Let's actually bring this up with the duke first, though.

Seriously, why do so many of you want to not talk with the guy we're hoping will back us up in court before arresting this guy?
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Mlamlah

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1780 on: March 03, 2013, 05:43:53 pm »

A fair point. Alright, i think we might be able to vote on this.
I'm for bringing this to the duke, and then having the merchant arrested.

Bring along the new prisoner that his plea for his sister might help our case.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 05:46:23 pm by Mlamlah »
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tryrar

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1781 on: March 03, 2013, 05:48:52 pm »

A fair point. Alright, i think we might be able to vote on this.
I'm for bringing this to the duke, and then having the merchant arrested.

Bring along the new prisoner that his plea for his sister might help our case.

+1
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This fort really does sit on the event horizon of madness and catastrophe
No. I suppose there are similarities, but I'm fairly certain angry birds doesn't let me charge into a battalion of knights with a car made of circular saws.

Gervassen

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1782 on: March 03, 2013, 05:51:03 pm »

---
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 06:38:44 pm by Gervassen »
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1783 on: March 03, 2013, 05:51:21 pm »

A fair point. Alright, i think we might be able to vote on this.
I'm for bringing this to the duke, and then having the merchant arrested.

Bring along the new prisoner that his plea for his sister might help our case.
+1
+2
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Gervassen

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Re: Lordship: A Suggestion Game
« Reply #1784 on: March 03, 2013, 05:52:27 pm »

--
« Last Edit: March 03, 2013, 06:42:22 pm by Gervassen »
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The way's paved with knaves that I've horribly slain.
See me coming, better run for them hills.
Listen up now...

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