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[kahn1234]

If we're alone, we should be fighting from behind at least decent fortifications. (Also, an army of 35 people, we'd be in trouble in any situation without support).

Fortifications which we dont have and wont have for quite a long time.

Sun Tzu, Art of War: "Go into battle with the army you have, not the army you wish you had."

and the fact is, even if we did have fortifications, we'd still need dedicated melee troops to defeat attackers who get onto the walls.

[Gervassen]

Well, Sun Tzu would be saying "Get a better army first" to us right now, so we're trying to reach a concensus on what that future army looks like.

With town improvements, we can always delegate to others, but we're the first and last word in matters military. What I do know is that our locality has good archers, so we have to make room for them in our planning. For other specifics, we should identify major themes in what is being proposed in various posts.

Gotdamn wants mobility; kahn wants heavy armor; tryar wants skirmishers, woodcraft, and guerilla tactics.

Is this general enough?

[kahn1234]

Well, Sun Tzu would be saying "Get a better army first" to us right now, so we're trying to reach a concensus on what that future army looks like.

With town improvements, we can always delegate to others, but we're the first and last word in matters military. What I do know is that our locality has good archers, so we have to make room for them in our planning. For other specifics, we should identify major themes in what is being proposed in various posts.

Gotdamn wants mobility; kahn wants heavy armor; tryar wants skirmishers, woodcraft, and guerilla tactics.

Is this general enough?

I think that is a bit too general.

To be more specific.

Gotdamn wants mobility, but his strategy lacks any type of hard hitting power or melee troops. Yes, having lots of fast moving ranged troops can be effective, but there are many ways to counter them, fairly easily, if totally unsupported by strong melee troops.

I want heavily armoured commoner troops modelled after English Billmen (heavy Mail or partial plate-mail), professional Armoured spearmen (Heavy mail or partial plate-mail) and swordsmen (Partial or full plate) and European mounted/dismounted knights in general supporting large numbers of medium armoured archers (longbowmen in brigandine or plated coats) supported by light cavalry used to harass the enemy flanks and rear.

and Tryer wants to turn our troops into the medieval version of the Vietcong.

[10ebbor10]

And I just want to note that having an army larger than 50 people will be unlikely for a long time.

On a seperate note:

Mal; how much of our population lives outside the primary town?

[Maldevious]

Don't have an exact number in mind, but in my head, your "Medium" population in your lands equates to about 5x the population of your city... so, at the moment, you have about 850 people living in your land outside your city, or about 1,000 combined urban and rural.

[kahn1234]

thats interesting.

An Idea: All able bodied men above the age of 12 have to do at least 1 hours of longbow practice every 2 days and be adequate users of pole-arm weapons (like a billhook).

Could help us if we get into trouble.

[Gervassen]

Longbow is something that requires great strength, so there's a certain amount of men that will simply never bend a true 150lb longbow. We can train every militia-aged man in the bill and in holding a basic line formation, though. Urist and GWG already endorsed this, and I do as well, so there seems to be a consensus here. We'll call up conscripts armed with bills in times of need. Probably 200 able men from 1000 inhabitants. Our squire, Alan, can supervise this militia training once a month at various assembly points in the countryside. That'll give him something to do.

But this should only be for local defense. Farming and other industries are too important. Our contribution to the ducal levies pretty much remains 50 men.

----

So, how do we approach this more elite standing force?

Mobility, armor, and unexpected tactics are all desirable. But which meshes better with other forces? If we're traveling with a larger army, we use their tactics not ours. We can't tell the commander that our forces only work in ambushes on the morning of the big pitched battle. I think learning traps and snares, and creating concealment for ambuscade are great skills for a battlefield of our choosing, but that's hard to accomplish as a small unit in a much larger host.

Concerning armor, the plate armor factory is a really interesting idea, and we ought to emphasize drawing the types of talented people that can create this and other innovations. But that's a distant goal. Right now, we can do brigandine, and I think we can agree that this level of armour is suitable and affordable. We can argue about upgrades when we actually have smiths or technology to accomplish that. We'll be trying, for sure. Armor increases the survivability of our archers, and their talents are not much easier to develop than those of knights themselves.

But surviving a hit is not as effective as simply not waiting to be hit. I still say we concentrate on mobility for now. If we can get composite bows and fulfill Gotdamn's vision of fully mounted archers, that is ideal, but let's at least get every standing guard member used to handling a horse. Buying fifty average riding horses ought to be within our means. The opens up tactical options, yes, like where to position our men to the flanks of the enemy, but also strategic options of marching fifty miles a day instead of ten miles. We can become the scouts of the army, valuable and not expendable fodder. The commander treats us with care. We can also ride ahead of the main force and use our own tactics, harassing the supply trains and setting ambushes--we open up the possibilities of using those guerilla tactics when we aren't plodding along in the main marching column with everyone else.

So, I say we tackle all three objectives, but in an achievable order. We can make brigandine, we can buy horses, and we can practice woodcraft and setting ambushes. Let's do those things in that order, then re-evaluate when we've learned more.

[kahn1234]

Longbow is something that requires great strength, so there's a certain amount of men that will simply never bend a true 150lb longbow. We can train every militia-aged man in the bill and in holding a basic line formation, though. Urist and GWG already endorsed this, and I do as well, so there seems to be a consensus here. We'll call up conscripts armed with bills in times of need. Probably 200 able men from 1000 inhabitants. Our squire, Alan, can supervise this militia training once a month at various assembly points in the countryside. That'll give him something to do.

But this should only be for local defense. Farming and other industries are too important. Our contribution to the ducal levies pretty much remains 50 men.

Military grade Longbows could come in any weight from 90lb to 150lb. In fact, any longbows over 120-125lb were mainly used by men over the age of 25 at least (aka, very experienced archers who had been hunting since they were 12 and using a 60lb bow), unless they trained fanatically or took to the kings order of at least an hour every 2 days (which was very easy as many families and farmers hunted their own meat using their own bows).

I would say that a large proportion of our populace will already be able to use powerful longbows (remember, we are in a fictional part of England, or at the very least a fictional England-based medieval country).

As for having Alan training bill armed troops to hold various formations, hold a line, support each other etc i fully endorse this. Maybe give them basic armour like light brigandine, simple helms and simple arm and leg guards? It would help morale, if nothing else.

EDIT: I just thought of a cheap and ridiculously easy armour to make that could give our militia good defense against cutting and crushing weapons.

Metal Splints. Splinted boots, thigh guards, and upper and lower arm guards. Light, doesn't impair movement and would stop bladed and blunt weapons from making contact with flesh and bone pretty well.

[tryrar]

.....good point about most effective skirmishers being mounted. I'm still for them though, so we should accelerate our horse buying and breeding program and start creating light cavalry. Light cavalry backed by archers is definitely gonna be devastating if used properly(I don't mean mounted archers since the bows they use would not last all that long in this climate, as has been pointed out and from my own knowledge)

I also agree having the able-bodied men spend an hour or two a day learning a simple pole weapon for emergency defense is a good idea(and that they'll only be for defense and our levy remains the same). However, here's an idea for a weapon for them to learn:Scythes(specifically war scythes). Most of the populace are farmers, so they are already familiar with a scythe, so all they really need to learn is standing in a line and formation fighting

[kaian-a-coel]

How about naginatas?
(and "it's japanese" is not a valid counter-argument, as far as we know, there is no such thing in this universe.)

[10ebbor10]

How about naginatas?
(and "it's japanese" is not a valid counter-argument, as far as we know, there is no such thing in this universe.)

It doesn't exist (in this universe) is a pretty good argument though.

Let's use Halberd's. It's the ultimate weapon. (I'm serious, it can be used as a spear, and axe, a axe on a long pole, and as a standard pole). Also, it has a build in hook to dismount riders.

Edit: Also, the Swiss use it. (And still do, to guard the Vatican)

[Maldevious]

Year 4, November

I apologize in advance, as it's quite tough to synthesize so many opinions on the military. I am sure some of you will be upset, but... this is my best effort, and if I got it wrong, keep making suggestions.

In November, an early frost strikes, but you manage to get a few projects rolling. You build a Mews for falconry near to your manor, as a surprise for Marna when she comes to live with you. You receive a few letters from her, and in your replies you attempt to get to know her daily life more intimately. She is an adventurous soul, taken to falconry as you already know, but she also enjoys reading the classics, engaging in debates, and learning more about the world around her. You tuck this information into your memory for later use.

You decide that, with no major projects occurring currently, you will provide citizens with a subsidy for replacing their wooden huts with brick. Even with the subsidy, it is still expensive, but a few of the wealthier merchants and craftsmen take you up on the offer.

While planning for the future, you go to your city council, and put forth two suggestions. You have thought of building either a public bath, or a public school and library. The councilors debate it one evening, and the result is quite unanimous: they would prefer the school and library, as the river serves the hygiene needs of most citizens. It is too late in the year to start building, but as with the information on Marna, you file it away for later use.

You spend the majority of the month working on changing the footing of your militia. You decide to replace your spearmen and axmen with halberdiers, which you have forged in iron to go along with Brigandine armor. Training begins immediately, and is overseen by Fin. You also recruit five new Rangers from the ranks of your archers, and spend a generous sum of money (nearly emptying your treasury) to purchase mounts for all of your troops, and have them begin training as riders.

Another edict is passed, stating that all able-bodied men must spend a couple hours each week working on either the halberd and line formations or the bow. Alan oversees this process, and feels these men will be capable of emergency duty in a few months.

While reforming your militia, you also spend some time on your jousting. You make some progress, and feel that you are about an average-skilled lancer. However, with the winter looming, you probably won't have much more time to practice until the spring.

December beckons. What would you like to do?

Spoiler: "Sir Samuel Stone" (click to show/hide)

Age: 22 (February birthday)
Good Health
Elite Fitness
Literate
Natural Archer
Fine Man of the People
Above Average Swordswman
Above Average Rider
Average Etiquette
Average Woodsman
Average Lancer
Novice Spearman
Novice Legal Mind
Novice Shield User
Poor Rhetoric

Spoiler: "Equipment and Possessions" (click to show/hide)

Weapons
Militia-grade Short Sword
Fine Longsword
Iron Lance

Armor
Mail Shirt
Brigandine Armor
Fur cloak and leggings
Iron Shield

Transport
Felucca
Mottled Grey Hunter

Housing and Misc.
Brick and Lumber Manor
Falconry Mews
Average Clothing
Silver Sun Necklace with Gold Pendant
Bound New Testament
Book of Laws
Cask of Beer
Stone Weights

Spoiler: "Feroshire (Capital Town)" (click to show/hide)

Treasury - Medium-high
169 Citizens
Services and Housing
Nice Communal Housing
Mix of Wood and Brick Housing
Nice Inn
Small Courthouse

Defense
Wooden Palisade

Trade and Travel
Brick Roads
Medium Brick Paved Market
Modest dockyard
Two-way Ferry

Industry
Large Clayworks
Smokehouse
Watermill (Lumber Mill and Grindstone)
Growing Shipyard
Brewery
Stables - Large herd of horses
Small Furniture Workshop

Spoiler: "Your Land" (click to show/hide)

Medium (5x city size) population (Loyal)
River Parlon (fertile banks on both sides, light forest to the north)

Farming
Nice parcel farms south of the river (two plantings per season)
Fine Communal Farm
Small Vineyard

Defense
Average Barracks, Armory, and Obstacle Course with Furnaces and Forges
Jousting practice field

Trade and Travel
Gravel Roads
Medium Warehouse

Industry
Small Fishing Fleet
Mines north of river (silver, copper, gold, iron, gems)
   * Small community of miners in communal houses

Spoiler: "Your Forces" (click to show/hide)

Average Iron Weapons
Average Iron Armor (Brigandine)
Mounts

Ranged
Five veteran Archers
Five regular Rangers
Ten regular Archers
Five green Rangers

Melee
Twenty green Halberdiers

Reserve
Ten green Watchmen
Mandatory Bow or Halberd Training for Able-bodied Men

Spoiler: "Your people" (click to show/hide)

Skilled Potters
Above Average Jewelers
Above Average Trappers
Journeymen Miners
Journeymen Metalworkers
Journeymen Masons
Journeymen Furniture Builders
Novice Horse Breeders
Novice Weaponsmiths
Novice Armorers

Spoiler: "Nearby" (click to show/hide)

Market Town of Carshire - One day's ride on main road
Folesden - Land of Count Foles - Downstream
   * Curbiston - County Seat of Folesden
Land of Sir Denton - Upstream
Land of Sir Percival - Adjacent to Sir Denton's land, across the river
Hemswood Abbey - Far Upstream - Known for dark beer
Lands of Duke Erran - Across the river to the north - Used for hunting

Spoiler: "Known Lords by Rank and Relationship" (click to show/hide)

King Edward Geronos IV, Lord of the Falls, Keeper of the Flame, Seer of the Dawn - Vaguely remembered

Duke Erran - Pleasant

Count Aaron Foles - Your Liege Lord - An angry drunkard - Suspicious
Count Gorgan - A fine fighter - Introduced
Count Zanders - Introduced

Sir Blake Denton - Friendly
Sir Alan Percival - Friendly
Sir Uriel Lope - Count's Marshall - Unsure
Sir Melvin - Lady Marna's brother, Duke Erran's nephew - Polite
Sir Ivanson - A renowned jouster - Introduced

Lady Marna - Infatuated

Spoiler: "Important Citizens by Occupation" (click to show/hide)

Alan Alanson - Squire, Captain of the Watch
Fin - Captain of the Militia
William Dent - Steward, Mayor
Victor Irlof - Master of the Market, Treasurer
Curtis Stumpf - Miner, Councilman
Ian Wood - Carpenter, Councilman
Marge Kannity - Brewer

Shipwright
Architect
Armorer
Weaponsmith

[Mlamlah]

Wait, *all* of our troops? Including the Halberdiers?

[Maldevious]

When I said training as riders, I meant for transport and maneuvering, not for battle. If I'm wrong, let me know, and you'll stop next month.

[tryrar]

No, that's fine. I'm just guessing we were trying to go for too much then, this is actually a nice compromise; having mobile dragoons that can fight in regular formations with other troops or rapidly redeploy to trap enemies, and the Rangers can provide for surprise attacks with their skill in traveling wooded areas, and still fight alongside regular archers. This does allow for good skirmishers still able to fight in regular formations, which satisfies all our different ideas. GG Mal!