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[kaenneth]

It's simple.

Goku would lose at first; then have a training session; increment the number of his "Super Saiyan" state; then win.

Then they would call it even and be bestest buds.

What I would pay money to see is a 'Batman vs Predator' movie.

[Neonivek]

It's simple.

Goku would lose at first; then have a training session; increment the number of his "Super Saiyan" state; then win.

Then they would call it even and be bestest buds.

What I would pay money to see is a 'Batman vs Predator' movie.

there is a Batman Versus Predator comic.

As well usually for these we don't include plot devices. Otherwise we get into silly things like Guybrush Threepwood would beat Galactus because Guybrush is the underdog and will always beat a supperior or Batman never getting hit with bullets because he never gets hit by bullets in the comics (by the by, he does).

[LordBucket]

being able to push against the gravitational accelleration the sun puts on the earth.

The comic scans give no indication that they were pulling the earth out of a descent into the sun. Flash expresses concern about being flung out into the void, and Superman comments that the villain pulling against them seems to be getting stronger. It could well be that the earth was being sent out of the solar system and they were pushing it back in. It could be that the earth was being sent in a straight line into the sun. It could be that the earth was nudged into an orbital path to collide with another planet. The two pages of scans that I've seen don't say and I haven't been able to find the rest of the comic.

All we know is that Superman and Hal Jordan together, over an unspecified amount of time, pushed Earth back into orbit, to correct for an unspecified amount of deviation in an unspecified direction.

There's not enough information in those scans to come to any useful conclusions.

However, like I've said a couple times now and am getting bored repeating...even if that information were available it would still not be meaningful because Superman has consistently demonstrated that when he does these massive lifting feats he's ignoring or alter inertia when he does. Or your "invulnerabilty field" as you're calling it. The method that he's using when he does these things is not usable as a direct attack because it renders the entire object exempt from inertial forces. When I punch you, it only hurts if the the inertia of your body resists the force being applied to a very small portion of it. If I apply similar force to every atom in your body simultaneously, I might move you...but you're not going to be injured by it.

This is why, like in the frozen lake feat I described earlier, the ice doesn't break or fall apart. He's telekinetically moving the whole thing, not merely applying lifting force with his body.

This is described, for example, here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Superman

"Superman's ability to fly under his own power is explained with the concept of "self telekinesis", an invisible telekinetic field that allows him to lift himself off the ground. Any objects that Superman touches are also enveloped by the field and this allows him to move them with the force of his will."

That Cartoon they shown with the alien and the piston
is the confirmation but I don't know why you didn't notice that.

I did. I also sourced it, provided quotes and responded. But you appear to not be reading my posts very closely.

Do you confirm Lord Bucket that he can INDEED pull off the Infinite Mass punch?

No. My entire position in this thread from page one has been that they drew on source material that contradicts the popular portrayal of the character.

The Infinite mass punch is the key to that. Do you confirm Lord Bucket that he can INDEED pull off the Infinite Mass punch? and that he can move at 6 times the speed of light?

The problem is that physics breaks down here. If he is able to exceed the speed of light, then yes in theory he should be able to apply an infinite amount of force. However, Goku is also able to exceed the speed of light, and in theory should also be able to do an infinite mass punch.

But both of their observable feats are not consistent with the interpretation that they can apply infinite force, nor that they're durable enough to withstand the accelerations involved with moving at light speed and hitting something.

This is a limitation of the cartoon physics we're working with. Which is, among other reasons, why I have repeatedly given examples of specific feats showing what the characters are and are not capable of.

Lord Bucket actually has no problem with Allstar Superman winning.

...which, since you realize that...bewilders me that you're still arguing about Allstar material.

If Goku COULD move 2x the speed of light he certainly would never dare to try.

Back on page 2 I gave three different examples demonstrating that Goku is FTL. Even the death battle video agreed he was FTL.

[Neonivek]

There are other example, but so far a I know they all require similar amounts of math and or speculation. The screwball attack estimate based on the Serpent's path feat put him at 2.3c. And I think that was quite some time prior to the first time he managed  kaioken as high as 20, so that seems reasonable. But on the other hand his training with Mr Popo was when he was just a kid. So if we've established a lower bound of at least 6c when he was a kid, obviously he's able to move faster as an adult, but how much faster? If you apply some of the extreme multiplliers that some people are coming up with for his various forms you could possibly claim a speed on the order of many thousands of c. Though that would be an extreme outlier compared to the majority of examples which put him at about 1-10

That only applies if you believe the Kaoken outright adds its multiplier to speed. Which is clearly doesn't.

So yes... you have not gotten anywhere close to proving Goku can move the speed of light. Once again Gotenks who is as strong as Goku... could not move at the speed of light going at top speed. Which you have yet to explain.

The only source you can get, other then one incorrect phrase, is from GT.

Actually what was sad is when I was originally making an arguement for Goku winning a long time ago. Someone did use the Gotenks footage and I couldn't disprove it. It is pretty damning as far as Goku's speed is concerned.

[LordBucket]

That only applies if you believe the Kaoken outright adds its multiplier to speed.

Pretty sure the kaioken is explicitly stated to be a direct multiplier for both power and speed. It's far more sourcable than any of the Super Saiayn level multipliers, which are much more vague.

you have not gotten anywhere close to proving Goku can move the speed of light.

Even death battle agreed Goku is FTL. Don't waste my time if you're going to respond with just "uhh, no he isn't."

[Neonivek]

Pretty sure the kaioken is explicitly stated to be a direct multiplier for both power and speed. It's far more sourcable than any of the Super Saiayn level multipliers, which are much more vague.

I think they just said Power which is a vague concept. IMO it likely multiplies Goku's Kai which dirrectly enhances his strength and speed but it isn't a dirrect multiplied enhancement.

It would certainly explain a few inconsistancies.

Even death battle agreed Goku is FTL. Don't waste my time if you're going to respond with just "uhh, no he isn't."

I already provided evidence to suggest this. Gotenks flies around the earth 8 times in 5 seconds. The speed of Light can do that 8 times in 1 second.

If you can argue against Death Battle I can too.

[LordBucket]

Let's turn this around. I'm tired of spending 15 minutes at a time digging up youtube videos and compiling screenshots and thigns when you're not even bothering to read half my posts. You've already agreed we're not arguing over Allstar, or Superman Prime, or comics where he can sneeze to accidentally destroy solar systems or anything like that. We're talking about "popular Superman." The movies, JLU, Smallville, etc.

I said this once before:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=121098.msg3951352#msg3951352

"Would Christopher Reeves Superman beat Goku? No.
Would JLU Superman beat Goku? No.
Would Smallville Superman beat Goku? No.
Would Superman Returns Superman beat Goku? No."

Which of those do you disagree with and why?

[Neonivek]

Hey as I said

Superman would lose against Goku everyday of the week... Except Saturday. Saturday Goku doesn't stand a chance.

If you specifically used the Superman at the peak rather then how he is usually. Then Goku has trouble.

[Zangi]

Hey as I said

Superman would lose against Goku everyday of the week... Except Saturday. Saturday Goku doesn't stand a chance.

If you specifically used the Superman at the peak rather then how he is usually. Then Goku has trouble.

Jab: Allstar Superman?

[Neonivek]

Hey as I said

Superman would lose against Goku everyday of the week... Except Saturday. Saturday Goku doesn't stand a chance.

If you specifically used the Superman at the peak rather then how he is usually. Then Goku has trouble.

Jab: Allstar Superman?

Honestly almost any depiction of Superman...

I am reminded of the Powerpuff Girls where they have been beat up by ordinary people before, unable to dodge their slow punches... while at the same time in other episodes they managed to outrun lasers or move so absolutely fast that they break a hole through time.

Which is really what Superman often feels like to me. You get this ordinary depiction that you kinda understand he is powerful but isn't outright invulnerable where a powerful villain can genuinly threaten him. Then something happens and all of a sudden he is lifting planets, taking super weapons to the face, and beating the speedsters in a foot race while at the same time being treated as an ordinary use of his powers he could have always done.

Which is really why the Superman cartoon was always much better then the comics in terms of consistancy. The Cartoons tended to stick to a certain depictions, sure when they actually mentioned numbers they were exagerrated to absurdity (15 supernova force blast... even on the moon would have destroyed the earth. How did you isolate it from doing that? As well what material could even withstand being 15 times heavier then earth in order to test Superman's strength? That seems a bit absurd), but those were always easy to ignore because the action was better then the science and chalk it up to dramatisation.

[DJ]

Inertialess field doesn't make any sort of sense, TBH. If that was it, Superman wouldn't be able to throw heavy objects, because they'd have no inertia while swung and thus when released would simply fall straight down. And I think there's more than one example of Superman throwing heavy objects.

Also, if this Inertialess field works by completely removing mass (and I don't see how you can decouple inertia and mass), any amount of force would impart infinite acceleration to the object in the field.

[Darvi]

That moment where I realize that Supes can also go Super Sayian.

[LordBucket]

Inertialess field doesn't make any sort of sense, TBH. If that was it, Superman wouldn't be able to throw heavy objects, because they'd have no inertia while swung and thus when released would simply fall straight down. And I think there's more than one example of Superman throwing heavy objects.

Also, if this Inertialess field works by completely removing mass (and I don't see how you can decouple inertia and mass), any amount of force would impart infinite acceleration to the object in the field.

Yes, it's a mass reduction. Just not 100% reduction.

Again, remember Superman flying hand in hand with Lois:



She's not dangling from his hand. This is not a strength feat. He's clearly either tampering with mass and inertia and/or telekinetically lifting her entire body rather than simply "lifting" her with his muscles. Yes, he's strong enough to throw things like cars and buses and tanks, but routinely when he fights he has to struggle and can't get out of grips and holds. He's strong, but he's only comparably strong to other superheroes. When he moves planets and things he's reducing their mass and altering their inertial properties. That's why can hold Lois' hand and make her fly, that's why he can move planets and frozen lakes without poking holes in them, and yet has to struggle to get out of simple holds. A planet he can reduce its mass and move it around. Somebody crushing him can apply force greater than his, and if he reduces their mass in a punch...that would simply make it a less effective punch.

Does anyone have a better explanation?

[Neonivek]

Does anyone have a better explanation?

Dramatisation. Since he cannot exactly do that in most media.

Same reason why Goku doesn't kill people by flying past them or create sonic booms with Instant Transmission.

[DJ]

Your theory still doesn't explain him throwing heavy objects. They should be dropping straight down upon exiting the field rather than maintaining their speed.