Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[LordBucket]

I think it's pretty much mandatory that we remove the constraints that would result in them not battling to the death. Such as worries about, say, destroying the earth.

But it's notable that Goku has been explicity shown to be on a planet when it blew up, and surviving both the explosion and the "oh, now I'm in space" just fine.

And superman has at the very least been shown flying to the sun.

I don't think a little thing like the destruction of the planet the battle took place on would stop either of them.

[Neonivek]

You're making that up. Cite me a source. Show me a video. Show me a screenshot. Show me something. I've looked for a video online of the Brolly sequence but haven't found one. However for Goku and Namek...I have that episode on DVD. He did not use a pod.

Brolly's ENTIRE shtick was that he went insane listening to Goku's crying as a baby.

But you don't like that because they have their pods nearby. Go ahead show me a source for your assertion that the pod is providing them with air. They're able to talk due to cartoon physics and I'm pretty sure if we looked hard enough we could find old super friends episodes showing superman talking in space too.

So show me a source for your assertion that the pods are providing air. Whether or not you can, here's a video of Vegita in space without a pod:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNVaXDs9434

The moon he's on has no atmosphere. if it did the sky would not be shown as black when viewed at 90 degrees to the ground. The sky on earth is blue because earth has an atmosphere. That moon has no atmosphere.

Actually it is shown having an atmosphere in the very first second of that video.

Even if you choose to arbitrarily ignore that for some silly reason, he is clearly shown in that video leaving the moon and flying right into space unaided

Actually that video managed to make my earlier assertion invalid that he was surviving in space for meer moment... but actually that video clearly shows there being an atmosphere of oxygen between earth and that planet and a path without going into the depth of space.

Keep in mind that if you look at that and insist on claiming that he just held his breath, I could just as easily claim that the scenes where superman is flying through space, he's just holding his breath too. I don't recall seeing superman in space for more than a few minutes at a time either.

Actually that has happened before. Some writers even went as far as saying that since Superman super condenses oxygen for his freeze breath, he can by the same logic just hold his breath, using super condensed oxygen, for a long period of time.

Quote
I saw an episode where Goku actually goes out to space space and he needed a space suit.

And here's a screenshot from Justice League showing superman wearing a spacesuit. But nobody is seriously suggesting that he needs it to survive in space.

You have to kind of go further then that. Goku has never shred that weakness but Superman has...

Still I think both Goku and Superman could get to safety (at this point) so that being in space all of a sudden isn't too big a deal.

[Zangi]

Superman is OP.  I don't know jack about him.

Also, not DBZ quality fight, too short, even if it is longer then the other death battle things.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Also, not DBZ quality fight, too short, even if it is longer then the other death battle things.

That's true. It needed to last about 15 episodes.

[Moghjubar]

Also, not DBZ quality fight, too short, even if it is longer then the other death battle things.

That's true. It needed to last about 15 episodes.

15 episodes of battle drama mixed with soap opera... mmmm mmm!

[Mlamlah]

While the Death Battle had some flaws i think in a lot of ways they had the right idea.
It's important to keep in mind that superman is pretty much *always* holding back, he doesn't ever behave as fast or strong as he really us because he could very easily accidentally kill almost any of his villains if he isn't extremely careful. This could be a pretty great disadvantage, and where a lot of the argument for why Goku might beat superman really boils down to.
That said, neither Goku or superman would up and kill eachother, it's just not something that would happen. Superman does not kill at all, and Goku only kills when it's absolutely nececcary. So the implied "death battle" means that to some extent their morals have to be ignored. Because otherwise it would be like all of the crossover marvel/dc fights that ever happened, which were boring, very boring. So Supes shouldn't really hold back in a hypothetical fight to the death (which would not happen to begin with).
Okay, so Superman is supposed to be fast, he might not be the most agile but he's fast enough for it to not matter. You know the Flash?That guy who's whole thing is being fast? Yeah superman and flash have had races, and... superman has beat him, (on another level this doesn't make sense though because both of them are fast enough to break the space time continuum with how fast they are.) So while superman has been hit by slow lumbering buffoons, it's only because superman holds back so much, and in the hypothetical death-fight he won't be holding back. So he's AT LEAST as fast as Goku, at least those are my thoughts.
I think it might also be noted that Goku has a finite supply of energy, he's only got so much to draw on, while with the presence of a sun superman has an effectively limitless supply of power. A lot of Goku's victories have been possible because while he's tired and drained, his opponents have been firing off a lot of juice too (at least that's what i think of it.)
Now i'm no superman lover, except for the superman of a particular few writers i've often found him bland. But superman is simply more powerful than Goku, it's only because he chooses not to use all his power that anyone ever has a chance against him. When he chooses to utilize all that strength he's unassailable, but also a danger to everyone around him. (Around being relative, easily encompassing the people of an entire planet.) 

[Neonivek]

A lot of Goku's victories have been possible because while he's tired and drained, his opponents have been firing off a lot of juice too (at least that's what i think of it.)

It is usually because Goku fires off that last remaining spark of power in a concentrated form while at the same time finding even further reaches of his own power. Where he usually fights in a way to stretch out a longer fight.

Afterall if you use all your energy in a single attack and you miss... you lost.

He has fought villains who either never could get tired or who could fight goku using minimum power and won.

[LordBucket]

because superman holds back

You can only go so far with this argument.

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02CbAFfppIY

Is superman just "holding back" in that fight? Is the blood that he's spraying on innocent bystanders and barfing onto the concrete in that scene because he's "letting the guy beat him?"



This is Superman being bloodied in a fight where the general scale of destruction is buildings and cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_(comics)

"Superman quickly found that his opponent's power was a match for his own, and so he realized that if Doomsday actually reached Metropolis, the resulting battle could conceivably destroy the city and kill millions of innocent people."


Meanwhile, here's Goku repelling a planet destroying attack:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhc2KExolrw

And in case you think that's hyperbole, here's a video of Vegita actually destroying a planet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnqtg0bte6w

Dragonball is full of characters who can casually blow up planets. And yet, watch this famous scene of Superman "letting loose:"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zFsxSH8fUA

So there's superman giving a huge speech about how he lives in a world of cardboard, and how he always has to hold back...and now...this is his rare opportunity to really let loose and show everyone just how powerful he is. Those are his words. So what does he do? He hits Darkseid hard enough to make him fly through half a dozen buildings, flies around to the other side before he gets there and smashes him into the ground.

Sure, that's a significant feat. It's not trivial. But it doesn't compare real well with "I can blow up planets." And hits of that magnitude are completely common in dragonball.

the superman of a particular few writers

See, that's the thing. "A few particular writers" have superman able to take supernovas to the face, be sandwiched between planetary collisions and so forth. But the vast majority of them don't.

You know the Flash?That guy who's whole thing is being fast? Yeah superman and flash have had races, and... superman has beat him, (on another level this doesn't make sense though because both of them are fast enough to break the space time continuum with how fast they are.) So while superman has been hit by slow lumbering buffoons, it's only because superman holds back so much, and in the hypothetical death-fight he won't be holding back. So he's AT LEAST as fast as Goku

That doesn't really work. You need to demonstrate that Flash is faster than Goku for that to make sense. And if you're talking about any post-Crisis version of Flash, he probably isn't.

If you go looking for it there is one particular comic where Flash is shown to be able to move something like billions of times the speed of light. Just like there's a comic out there showing Superman accidentally destroying solar systems by sneezing. And for every instance of superman juggling planets or tanking supernovas you've got crazy stuff like this:

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/9491/407858-karate_kid_own_supes_super.jpeg

Yes, that's a comic showing Superman being defeated by Karate Kid, who is a completely normal, unpowered, non-super regular old human being.

This was known as the Silver Age of comics, during which nothing was consistent and every writer made stuff up on a day to day basis. Then one day Crisis on Infinite Earths came around and retconned all that, and DC no longer considers any of that to be canon. The Speed Force limits Flash to the speed of light. Superman can be shown to be superluminal. So yes, he's faster than the Flash. And so is Silver Surfer, so is probably Supergirl and Captain Marvel...and yes, so is Goku. Lots of characters are faster than Flash.


...so, yes. I think it's totally reasonable to toss out examples of Superman being defeated by regular unpowered humans, and I think it's reasonable to toss out example of Superman juggling planets. These things are extreme outliers that just aren't representative of how the character is portrayed in the majority of his media.

[Neonivek]

Sure, that's a significant feat. It's not trivial. But it doesn't compare real well with "I can blow up planets." And hits of that magnitude are completely common in dragonball

That is because it was Dark Sied, someone who could take the entire justice league and win. That punch would have disintigrated anyone else. The fact that Dark Sied's invulnerability managed to deflect such a large proportion of that blow is impressive on itself. The same series that actually quantified Superman's strength.

Is superman just "holding back" in that fight? Is the blood that he's spraying on innocent bystanders and barfing onto the concrete in that scene because he's "letting the guy beat him?"

Actually yes. Superman has gotten close to losing battles before because of how much he holds back, actually he HAS lost battles because he held back. As well the opponent he is facing is as powerful as Superman, if not a bit stronger at that point.

In one of the battles he won against Doomsday because he was willing to do an attack he wouldn't normally do by drilling into his brain. He tries it a second time much later but Doomsday special ability is that he cannot be defeated the same way twice.

Yes, that's a comic showing Superman being defeated by

No, that is a single scene showing Karate kid doing a single move against Superman. A feat even Batman has done. In fact in their first appearance together, Batman manages to throw Superman. It was uttarly harmless to Superman but Batman still managed to do it. As well Karate Kid has super Karate, he has SUPER blow redirrection ability given to him by his training.

Batman has beaten up Karate Kid (which even I groaned at).

I think it's totally reasonable to toss out examples of Superman being defeated by regular unpowered humans, and I think it's reasonable to toss out example of Superman juggling planets. These things are extreme outliers that just aren't representative of how the character is portrayed in the majority of his media

Yeah but your image of Superman is far below even that.

Of should I show you images of people STRONGER THEN GOKU getting injured by Ship bombardment. Yes that actually happened. A Ship cannon to the head is enough to seriously Bruise SS3 Goku.

Anyhow no one could outright destroy planets with Kai until the Cell Saga anyhow. Both Vegeta and Frieza's planet destroying attacks do it without outright power. Frieza by destroying the Core causing the planet to collapse into itself and Vegeta's is specifically tailored to destroying planets with minimal effort.

---

I will say one thing they did get wrong about Goku was that Goku multiplies the strength of his punches and attacks beyond what his "Lifting strength" would be. Sure he may barely be able to lift 40 tons, but his punches are far more effective then a 40 ton punch.

[LordBucket]

your image of Superman is far below even that.

My "image of Superman" is the one from the movies and various animated series like JLU. Not the comics. I don't dispute that the comics exist, but like I said to begin with they chose source material that I'm not familiar with and that contradicts the depiction in material that I am.

Simple challenge:
Find me a non-fanmade video source that depicts Superman doing feats on the order of magnitude that would make him a credible threat for Goku. The movies and the animated shows...that's the Superman that I think most people know. Not the Superman from comics who juggles planets.

In video media, Superman is generally presented as being powerful enough to be capable of being a strong "city-level" threat. He can easily destroy buildings. He can toss around tanks. He can use heat vision to incinerate a couple hundred targets. The scale of the battles and destruction are measured in miles. The villains he generally fights are of a similar order of magnitude and are presented as serious threats who might be able to defeat him when they're capable of this amount of damage.

For example, here's one of Superman's fights with Doomsday from JLU:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GoX98qxJX4

This is presented as a credible threat to Superman. They splash around in the lava, they smash each other with multi-ton boulders, they tank terminal-velocity falls. End result: Supes is tired and injured, island is destroyed. That's the level of destruction that he and his opponents engage in.

Here's that fight against Darkseid again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zFsxSH8fUA

Again, he's being presented as a credible threat. Superman punches him through some buildings then smashes him into the ground with enough force to make a crater and that's considered enough damage to end the fight.

They're not blowing up planets.

[Darvi]

Goku would win, hands down. Supes can't even fly properly.

[Neonivek]

My "image of Superman" is the one from the movies and various animated series like JLU.

Ohh now it makes sense. Especially since Movie Superman tends to be much weaker (Well ok he lifted an entire island and flown much faster then the speed of light) as well as often dialing back Superman for the sake of group battles or making the villain more credible.

In video media, Superman is generally presented as being powerful enough to be capable of being a strong "city-level" threat.

It is because it would be boring to see Superman fight on a planetary level...

This is presented as a credible threat to Superman. They splash around in the lava, they smash each other with multi-ton boulders, they tank terminal-velocity falls. End result: Supes is tired and injured, island is destroyed. That's the level of destruction that he and his opponents engage in

The funny thing is that Lava is considered deadly to goku until much later (sorta, he never becomes invulnerable to that heat).

Find me a non-fanmade video source that depicts Superman doing feats on the order of magnitude that would make him a credible threat for Goku. The movies and the animated shows...that's the Superman that I think most people know. Not the Superman from comics who juggles planets

So you want me to find an video of superman that quantifies how powerful he is from the show or movies?

Well of the ones you already shown me
1) Superman is able to wade through Lava. Something Goku actually cannot do.
2) In the video itself you saw the cartoon quantify how strong Superman is, which is over 100 times stronger then Goku at max. (Superman easily lifted over double what it would take to move the earth itself). Specifically 15 Octillion Megatons.
3) Superman the movie Superman manages to move so fast he is able to move the earth backwards. Much faster then the speed of light (in fact the actual speed would be unfathomable)
4) In the video itself they show a clip of a movie where Superman takes a blow the equivilant of 15 supernovas. (I saw that movie it was interesting).
5) SAME VIDEO he used his Heat vision to hack up someone's brain without shooting it through their skull.

I will find them the clips if you need them but it is going to be tough. It isn't hard to actually hear and see great feats Superman does within his own shows and movies.

Also the video, as well as me, are not counting Silverage Superman.

Though YES you will get a lot of inconsistancy even within the same show. Superman has been shown being knocked back by a Helecopter mounted gun as well as lifting impossibly heavy objects. The explanation as far as the show is concerned is that Superman is holding back and that apperantly does affect how well he can take a blow (which is because his invulnerability is tied to his will). Given that he has shrugged off attacks he had been hurt by before.

This is presented as a credible threat to Superman. They splash around in the lava, they smash each other with multi-ton boulders, they tank terminal-velocity falls. End result: Supes is tired and injured, island is destroyed. That's the level of destruction that he and his opponents engage in

Given Doomsday is as strong as superman I am not surprised he was considered a credible threat. Superman's fights just arn't as flashy as Goku's.

What is funny is the way Superman mildly inconvenienced Doomsday would have killed Goku. possibly up to SS3 and probably even then.

---

Better yet I can actually show why Goku isn't as strong as they say he is in the video. Thankfully Gotenks (who is STRONGER then SS3 Goku) manages to get hit by a Battleship and get a bruise and when going full speed manages to go slower then the speed of light.

---

Mind you the worst Death Battle in terms of "That isn't how it works" is Link versus Cloud. Where the results would have been quite the opposite (That battle suffers from what I call "Captain America's shield Syndrome" in the worst way. With Link even managing the split second timing required to stop the Omnislash, which even for him it would have been impossible.). I mean say what you will about Goku versus Superman they at least shown their work giving both comicbook and TV show examples of his outright numbers and did the same for Goku, even if I disagreed with them I could at least admit that they made a valid case.

The absolute worst in terms of "No Duh" was Thor versus Raiden... To the point where I think they should have chosen a closer match. Raiden may be a god of thunder but the Mortal Kombat series has tended to be rather down to earth (Ignoring that Raiden once created a super nuclear explosion).

All in all the series is pretty bad so far... the only ones I liked was Batman versus Spiderman and Goku Versus Superman... The rest were either a big no duh or... that Cloud Versus Link.

Predictions:

-I am now on Peach Versus Zelda and let me already put my vote in... ZELDA! I mean if they included her Super Princess Peach Powers... MAYBE there is something in there... but no Zelda wins!

-Eggman Versus Wily: Oooh... Ok I'll give it to them. I don't know. Eggman has created world destroying machines and Wily has made Zero a robot with the ability to cancel ANY opponents power to zero (which only Megaman X is somewhat immune to... Megaman X's power that he has infinite potential).
-Master Chief Versus Doomguy: Master Chief. If they read any of the material they would know that they REALLY exagerate the power of Master Chief.
-Chun-Li Versus Mai: I think Chun-Li, I don't know much about Mai but Chun-Li does have super speed, strength, and Chi generation. If they know that.

Ugh... these are all going to suck...

Result: Peach Versus Zelda: No, I think you guys are over valuing "being unpredictable". This one is pretty bad... not as bad as Cloud Versus Link but still pretty bad. Even worse is they made the clincher her kick... when she was shot with the Arrow of Light.

Result: Wily Versus Eggman: Oook... so No Zero... Odd. This is a weird battle So many of their best machines on both sides were excluded. As well they forgot Mummyman is neigh immortal.

----

Ok I watched enough I finally understand what their Bias is.

They tend to over value specific abilities. For example in Spiderman Versus Batman they overvalued Spiderman's Spidersense forgetting that Spiderman can be surprised since his Spider sense isn't perfect. The fight went the way it should have but that was the first sign.

The second was in Link versus Cloud where they over valued Link's ability to use his shield. Giving Cloud no ability to strike around it even though... he could have easily much faster then link.

The Third was Starscream Versus Rainbow Dash where they overvalued her speed and turned it into "Unhittable" (though in their words it is because he has bad aim). Even though her regular flight speed is much slower then Starscream's bullets.

In otherwords they tend to over value "Dodge" and "Shield" abilities (Except in that Zelda versus Peach fight, I don't know what happened there) as well as any "Perfect" ability. Which the issue is that with many of these battles these shields are far more likely to fall then the opponent's attack itself.

Their second Bias is an odd one because I never seen it before, because everyone knows it makes no sense, is what I shall call the "Variety Bias" where they will often declair winners based simply around the variety of attacks or disconnect between the attacks rather then the outright quality. Which is so ludicrous that it is often like saying someone would win a shoot out because they brought five different guns to kill one guy. The two fights this occurs in is both the Mai versus Chun-Li and Princess Peach versus Zelda where this was considered the deciding factor. In fact even Link versus Cloud had that where many of Link's attacks would have been outright useless against cloud such as Link's boomerang and even his Bombs yet were considered an advantage. An issue where Link's arsenal would have been negated by Link's outright abilities was never brought up.

The issue with these is that, as we know, the quality of a single simple attack can overcome an arsenal of a million unpredictable ones if that single attack is just outright better. Thus fighters who have a more simple yet more finely tuned arsenal tend to get undervalued to someone who is much less capable but more with more variety of attacks.

I feel like I wasted my time. I started to even be able to predict it... Wonderwoman versus Rogue for example I knew Wonderwoman would win in an actual fight, however because I know how they would overvalue Rogue's ability I know they would make her the winner.

[LordBucket]

it would be boring to see Superman fight on a planetary level.

But that's the superman that most of us know.

Would Christopher Reeves Superman beat Goku? No.
Would JLU Superman beat Goku? No.
Would Smallville Superman beat Goku? No.
WOuld Superman Returns Superman beat Goku? No.

Would Superman Prime beat Goku? Definitely. But I'd never heard of Superman Prime apart from the "Superman vs Goku" context. I'm pretty sure if you were to ask anyone who'd seen all the movies, all of JLU, all of super friends, all of Smallville, "Can Superman conjure up new life forms and ressurect the dead?" they'd probably say no. Because those are not powers he's normally attributed with and contradict those sources. His inability to ressurect Lois at the end of the first movie was a significant plot point, for example.

So by bringing out Allstar they pulled out a source that I'd never even heard of that contradicts all the material that I am.

the video itself
the video
SAME VIDEO
Also the video

What video are you talking about? I specified no fan-made content. The labotomy scene is from JLU, but Wiz and Boomstick's speculation doesn't count any more than random Dragonball fanfics that have him blowing up galaxies.

Superman the movie Superman manages to move so fast he is able to move the earth backwards. Much faster then the speed of light

So what? Both Superman and Goku can travel faster than light.

you saw the cartoon quantify how strong Superman is, which is over 100 times stronger then Goku at max. (Superman easily lifted over double what it would take to move the earth itself). Specifically 15 Octillion Megatons.

No. While "heavy lifting" is one of Superman's stock abilities, his extreme lifting feats are obviously not just "I'm strong so I can lift stuff." It's contact telekinesis and it's the same ability that allows him to fly. Whether it's a plane in the movies and JLU, or a frozen river in the movies, or Apokalips in Smallville, there are no internal inertial forces in the objects he moves. He's never poked a hole in an airplane instead of moving it, or torn it in half because the far end wasn't supported.

Consider this scene from the third movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70OgnOXFolI#t=1m49s

He freezes a lake, picks up it by one end and flies it around.



That's not "muscle strength" lifting a lake. If it were the end far away from him would fall, or the chunk he was holding onto would break off from the torque of thousands of tons of ice. But that doesn't happen because he's telekinetically moving the entire thing.

Another example, flying with Lois:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLUbpaqEY_w



They're holding hands and flying. He's obviously not "supporting her weight" with muscles. If he were she'd be dangling by his hand because she wouldn't have the strength to hold up the rest of her body with one arm. That doesn't happen because he's telekinetically lifting her entire body via a point of contact.

This is why he can effortlessly move massive objects while in flight, but has to struggle to get out when being held by an attacker. He's not as strong as he's being credited with. He's a contact telekinetic.

[Neonivek]

Both Superman and Goku can travel faster than light.

Actually that is never established. SS3 Gotenks couldn't even break the light speed barrier.

They just gave Goku the benefit of the doubt.

So by bringing out Allstar they pulled out a source that I'd never even heard of that contradicts all the material that I am.

No did you hear them? They litterally said they wouldn't use that Superman specifically because he is so rediculous he could win. They arn't using All Star Superman.

[Frumple]

Ah... instant transmission pretty much explicitly breaks FTL, neo. LB's number crunching earlier notwithstanding, that's pretty direct.