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[Nonsequitorian]

But that is still skirting around what magic IS. If magic = mana, and mana = life energy or whatever term, then what is life? A rock can be enchanted (because anything CAN be enchanted, it just makes more sense to give your sword your fire enchants than it does your favorite tree), does that mean you just gave it some form of life?

A) If magic is expensive to learn, yet everybody has potential, then WHAT is exactly expensive? Using it? But then what's the expense? What happens when you try to learn it on your own?
B)This makes sense. Makes Wizards more intelligent sounding and would explain why they're always so goddamn old.
C) Yet everybody has it in them? I don't see how that works. If not everybody had magic potential, then yeah I could see it, but when everybody has it, then why would it be rare?
D) Makes sense, but doesn't really work in the game. Would make it a bitch to become a mage. Maybe that means it does work in the context of the game? Like Necro powers? I don't know what I think about this one.
E) Also makes sense, but then what is the cost? You can't be turned evil, because who is to say you're evil when much of the game is what you think about it? If in-game people have prejudice against magic, I could see them not liking you and making it hard to get followers, but that's a bit silly. The only thing that I could think of is that it takes so much time to get good at without destroying your reputation that it's just not as useful to be a mage adventurer as it is a knight. Sure, if you just went and killed all the people you saw you'd learn really quick, but then you'd be genuinely evil. In Legends mode, I could see this working. Magic makes you evil. But then in adventure mode, that doesn't work.

Why does using your real energy make less sense to make magic than some magic fuel or stored magic? I'm not understanding that. Why would you have to differentiate the energy you get from eating from the energy you use for magic? Where do you get your magic? Do you have to eat special foods?

Call me stubborn, but right now I'm really trying to understand how mana would work. To me, mana is a pretty worn out idea. That we don't normally need to be told that the blue bar is mana and the red bar is health in a game must mean something is wrong. We don't have the red bar in DF, so why would we want to give ourselves the blue one?

Adrian, I do like the idea of having charging being needed for spells, but then I'd also like to see a quick cast or a "hold charge" sort of option. Quick cast might be just pushing really hard on your magic abilities to get an immidiate spell out quicker, but because you push hard you lose more energy, or you just put to much energy into it and it's just lost in the air. A hold charge might cost a little bit to hold it, but much less than most any other spell. Running around with your fire ball for an entire day would cost as much as the fireball itself.

I just wouldn't want being a mage to be something that you have to plan ahead for. I want a mage adventurer, and you can't really do that when most of the time dangers pop out around the corner and attack you. You'd be completely helpless if it took one whole turn for a fireball and somebody with a sword was at your throat.

[Neonivek]

then what is life?

That which is living. A metaphysical trait.

 

does that mean you just gave it some form of life?

Depends on the setting, but yeah. Golems for example.

A) If magic is expensive to learn, yet everybody has potential, then WHAT is exactly expensive? Using it? But then what's the expense? What happens when you try to learn it on your own?

In some settings magic requires very expencive ingrediants like grinding up rubies and diamonds. This could be on a spell for spell basis or it could be that it requires large expencive foci (for example a tower to channel magic from laylines)

C) Yet everybody has it in them? I don't see how that works. If not everybody had magic potential, then yeah I could see it, but when everybody has it, then why would it be rare?

because I was seperating different types of reasons why someone wouldn't have magic spells. Though it can be combined. If magic is very expencive but a few people have an inate ability to, for example, light campfires with a touch without wasting valuable resources, that would be a AB combination.

D) Makes sense, but doesn't really work in the game. Would make it a bitch to become a mage. Maybe that means it does work in the context of the game? Like Necro powers? I don't know what I think about this one

It sort of REALLY works in this game. This is a magical world brimming with creates of magical and godly might with dieties just walking around.

E) Also makes sense, but then what is the cost? You can't be turned evil, because who is to say you're evil when much of the game is what you think about it?

In the story the main character from using the Death Touch was haunted by Boogeymen and hinted that he was likely going to die or need to get rid of his curse from using that magic.

Other costs could be a risk that a demon could possess you, you could start to age rapidly, your health could start to decay, you could be turned into another possibly harmless creature, You COULD be turned evil and unplayable (I have no issues with your character becoming unplayable if you ever lose your mind), people could start irrationally hating you, you could get deadly bad luck, really bad fleas... Anything really works.

Why does using your real energy make less sense to make magic than some magic fuel or stored magic?

Because it actually makes less sense to convert something inherantly unmagical into magical energy then it is to simply take magic that already exists and focus it into a purpose.

Why does your bodies chemical processes get turned into magic?

It is like putting battery acid into a steam acid expecting it to run.

It ONLY works in settings where... Once again... Everyone is magic. It is why most settings that use a Stamina to Magic mechanic have it so that the fatigue is either because of "Equivilant exchange" (Where magic dictated that you had to be exhausted) or because it isn't fueling magic but rather the fatigue represents the stress your body goes under performing magic. Heck one explained it simply by saying Ki and magic are similar if not the same thing (and given that Ki is part of someone's life force... Yeah)

 

Where do you get your magic? Do you have to eat special foods?

Actually I have seen settings where that happened.

right now I'm really trying to understand how mana would work. To me, mana is a pretty worn out idea. That we don't normally need to be told that the blue bar is mana and the red bar is health in a game must mean something is wrong. We don't have the red bar in DF, so why would we want to give ourselves the blue one?

We have a stamina bar and not a HP bar. I don't percieve magic to work on such a straight forward basis.

Mana is a cliche because mana makes the most sense and is the most straight forward representation for simply the stored magic within someone without magic simply being endless.

If Stamina is what is used to fuel magic then you just made Stamina a Mana Pool.

I just wouldn't want being a mage to be something that you have to plan ahead for.

You really will have to, ignoring that Toady has some reservations on magic adventurers, since spells won't all be given to you. You will actually have to think about what you are going for and what you are willing to risk.

Also Remember this is Dwarf Fortress... There is NO reason why your wizard cannot kick butt with a sword as well. In fact it will probably be expected.

[GreatWyrmGold]

About nonmagical energy turning into magical energy: Why is that different from nonheat energy turning into heat energy, or any other energy conversions? And why is it different from magical energy turning into nonmagical energy (like zombies turning cranks/throwing stuff/etc, or fireballs creating light and heat, etc)? What is it that separates magical and nonmagical energy, anyways?

[Neonivek]

About nonmagical energy turning into magical energy: Why is that different from nonheat energy turning into heat energy, or any other energy conversions? And why is it different from magical energy turning into nonmagical energy (like zombies turning cranks/throwing stuff/etc, or fireballs creating light and heat, etc)? What is it that separates magical and nonmagical energy, anyways?

You are aware that the implication is that all magicians have a "Magic Organ" that converts the bodies calories into magic right?

What generally seperates magical and nonmagical energy is the protean nature of magic.

But still you cannot rub two sticks together and get magic, you need an intermediary.

Which ultimately you COULD keep inventing reasons why doing push ups makes magic, or you could simply have a system where people ritually call upon magic to cast spells (aka the mana system)

[GreatWyrmGold]

About nonmagical energy turning into magical energy: Why is that different from nonheat energy turning into heat energy, or any other energy conversions? And why is it different from magical energy turning into nonmagical energy (like zombies turning cranks/throwing stuff/etc, or fireballs creating light and heat, etc)? What is it that separates magical and nonmagical energy, anyways?

You are aware that the implication is that all magicians have a "Magic Organ" that converts the bodies calories into magic right?

No, I am unaware of any such implication. Even assuming that requires the inbuilt assumption of magic being inherently distinct from nonmagic.

What generally seperates magical and nonmagical energy is the protean nature of magic.

But still you cannot rub two sticks together and get magic, you need an intermediary.

Which ultimately you COULD keep inventing reasons why doing push ups makes magic, or you could simply have a system where people ritually call upon magic to cast spells (aka the mana system)

1. Where did the push-ups thing come from? The idea of magicians using their own energy is in no way incompatible with rituals and the like.
2. ATP doesn't just power muscles. Stop being a scientific illiterate and read one of the times I've said that earlier in this thread.
3. Magicians powering magic with, say, their body heat or something makes about as much sense as any other kind of magic.

[Nonsequitorian]

What I meant with mages having to plan ahead is that you'd have to plan immediately ahead. You'd have to carry a fireball or something around so that you don't get killed by the kobold around the corner. It makes sense that you have to go on an epic journey to become the superwizard.

[GreatWyrmGold]

That sounds acceptable. You shouldn't be able to just wander over to the tower to learn magic.

[Nonsequitorian]

Yeah, but what I meant from before was that there should be a way, though maybe wasteful, to have a spell ready in case something comes out of nowhere and attacks.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Oh, I see.
Something like D&D's scrolls and such comes to mind. When PCs don't buy, steal, or loot them, they're made, spending scarce experience points and gold to do so. Then, they can cast the spell later.
Something to that effect (although obviously not exactly the same) could work.

[Nonsequitorian]

I've never understood how taking out and reading a scroll to cast a spell would be faster than just reciting it off your memory.

[Neonivek]

I've never understood how taking out and reading a scroll to cast a spell would be faster than just reciting it off your memory.

In dungeons and dragons the spell itself was contained in the scroll, it was more then just writing and a reminder.

It was never as easy as simply saying a spell and doing the finger motions in dungeons and dragons. As well spells actually require advanced magical calculations and required intense concentration.

A scroll however takes away most of those issues, hense why a Wizard can cast a spell greater then his level with a scroll and why a Rogue, who has no magical ability, can use scrolls.

That sounds acceptable. You shouldn't be able to just wander over to the tower to learn magic.

There is no issue here. If you want to dedicate yourself to a tower academy go ahead it is probably the slower but safer way to do so.

Now if you want the cool spells you may have to go talk to that Titan or perhaps make a deal with that dark god of magic.

1. Where did the push-ups thing come from? The idea of magicians using their own energy is in no way incompatible with rituals and the like.
2. ATP doesn't just power muscles. Stop being a scientific illiterate and read one of the times I've said that earlier in this thread.
3. Magicians powering magic with, say, their body heat or something makes about as much sense as any other kind of magic.

I was being deliberate.

It makes more sense simply because you are going out of your way NOT to connect energy with magic. Why can bodily energy be converted into magic? It is because the laws of physics says you can. Why is energy able to convert with magic? Because that energy is inherantly magical or because the universe works on exchange.

Thus you created a system that makes less sense, because it requires one extra step of convolution, then a mana pool. It doesn't make NO SENSE... it just makes less sense then the system that you are pushing as nonsense gob.

[GreatWyrmGold]

How is "Magic is just another form of energy which you can convert ATP into" so much more "convoluted" than the idea that mana is trapped inside various plants and such and can be released to do specific things?

And, again, I'm NOT saying your system is nonsense...okay, it is, but only to the degree that ANY magic is. As far as magic goes, it's fairly sensible. As is treating magic as another type of energy which living creatures happen to be able to generate and use for various purposes.

[Neonivek]

It ultimately depends on the setting

Mind you I personally think that for Dwarf Fortress that magic should not be inherant. It needs to be awakened, harnessed, or commanded.

As well magic doesn't need to be an energy at all times. An Fairies ability to make a tree sway is "magical" but isn't "magic" so to speak in that the tree moves because the fairy can speak with the tree. Magic without mana in otherwords.

Now channeling aspects requires mana either from a pool or from what you happen to grab (which would be channel time). A "Mana Pool" in Dwarf Fortress in my oppinion for ordinary creatures (and not gods or magical creatures) would be simply what someone gathers.

So if someone casts magic from altering dream matter into whatever they desire using spells. They could in theory create a "mana pool" simply by gathering a lot of matter. This would of course be only one type of magic. Not all magic can be stored and some don't use use "Mana" of any type they work simply because. They may not even be capable of being harnessed through ordinary means.

Fatigue to magic ratio is something I am going to say I am not a fan of. I am a fan of making certain types of magic inherantly stressful. Yet the reason I don't like fatigue system is because it doesn't exactly work for creatures who are inherantly magical unless they get a "Discount".

Another reason why a "Mana pool" is not bad for Dwarf Fortress is for the Wizard Entity (the wizard who, by being onto a god because of their magic, can affect the entire world) and his actions. A Wizard needing to manipulate huge lay lines and connecting dimensions to harness more raw magic (and flavored magic) then any taudry magical adventurer will ever see. Is something that works.

[Cheesecake]

 Isn't the belief system sort of like the one in Warhammer 40'000? For example, the Orks entire civilization was based on what the majority of Orks thought. If enough Orks thought vehicles painted yellow would go faster, they would go faster because they were painted yellow. The Ork ''mages'' drew their power from the collective psyche of other Orks.
 I think that this would actually go well with DF. We could have meetings in the dining hall where everybody stopped working and gathered to listen to announcements and preachers. Then we could use propaganda to make them believe, say, smelting wood makes iron. Then, after a while, when you smelt wood it makes iron! This could be the mana pool being argued about the past few pages. As for the cost, it would be to completely stop production and the chance that some dwarves might refuse to believe what you said and try to tell the dwarves something else.
 For example, you tell your dwarves throwing a rock is as good as shooting a steel bolt but Urist McDisbelief says 'No! That's wrong! Throwing a rock actually uses up our food!' Then McDisbelief gets half the fort to believe him while half the fort believes you and throwing rocks slices through food with ease but throwing rocks at other things is completely useless.
 As for the corrupting thing, we could make this belief magic trick known only to the royals and nobles so no other dwarf can abuse it. But, Urist McSuspicious senses something wrong with these meetings and decides to skip the next one about 'Sheep are Wolves in Disguise' and the next morning, all the sheep appear to have turned into wolves. he decides to try it and, after amassing a large cult, makes them believe that he is made of iron and voila, Urist McSuspicious becomes Iron Man. This could lead to a lot of fun in fortresses.

[Nonsequitorian]

Yeah but it would suck to have your unhappy dwarf finally realize that he can turn into an elephant. He might tantrum and kill everybody.

It seems kinda just "Pop" magic to work like that. If the player had no influence, it'd be only annoying because your dwarves would always be changing into non-dwarven things. If the player DID have influence, everbody would instantly say "Adamantine is perfectly safe and is solid and goes down forever." Which would be game breaking.