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[Aseaheru]

while you people bicker over power, have we finished bickering over food?

[Starver]

I hear that Soylent Green is yummy.

[mainiac]

No, but two things.
1. 100 launches use 100 times the fuel and 100 times the power of 1 launch. It's only if you're launching 100 times the mass that it gets exponential (because you need to lift the fuel).

Do I really need to spell out that you would use solar power, not chemical power?

I mean you could maybe speculate that a miniature nuclear electrical generator could be developed for this one very narrow use (it would be useless in most applications due to heat generation).  But that would probably be something resembling a nuclear submarine.  The launch payload of a single heavy booster to the moon with bulk cargo would last you for quite a bit longer then a half century with nuclear submarine level consumption.  So no, there would not be reoccuring costs.

[vadia]

You could make a greenhouse on the inner ring of a station -- I am less sure about mars.

[Aseaheru]

don't you mean the outside? so there is gravity? that way we wouldnot need smaller chambers or GM foods that are currently very unstable after the first year.

[vadia]

inside of the ring.  The centripetal force (felt as the artificial force "centrifugal") pushes one away from the center.  Thus to grow food it has to be in the innermost section of the ring.

Unless you want to hydroponic it and walk on the windows.  Or perhaps slightly less freaky; pathways between windows.

[Starver]

inside of the ring.  The centripetal force (felt as the artificial force "centrifugal") pushes one away from the center.  Thus to grow food it has to be in the innermost section of the ring.

Unless you want to hydroponic it and walk on the windows.  Or perhaps slightly less freaky; pathways between windows.

?  Don't understand that at all.

It could be anywhere on the ring.  It... erm... well, going by your terminology it "pushes one away from the centre" (although more accurately technically it pushes the surface 'below' the item up towards the item sitting on it) but you get more force the further out you are.  Which I don't read into what you said there.

For hydroponics, you could perhaps put it at the outer part of rim (more gravity, assuming the plants can stand up whatever increase that is, but you can do all kinds of things to mitigate that, but a part of the station you might not want to having living quarters)  or in the inner part of the rim (for less gravity, which the plants would be happy enough with I'm sure, and again you might not want to live there, lest you get some of the trouble with bones/muscles that the spinning station was supposed to resolve).  But you could probably work in either environment.  And access it from the side, top, below, whatever works...

In fact, I'm sure we could work with plants (non-GMed ones, even) that can be grown nicely in a zero G environment, so even up at the hub (if not all over the station) , or on a separate 'farm station' that isn't spinning for the sake of humans because they're not living there 24/7/52.17, etc.

Certain algaes in water suspension, perhaps.  Although you might have the same problem with gas/nutrint diffusion in the liquid as with trying to maintain a flame in zero G (but 'normal' enough atmosphere).  But some recirculation method could probably work.

[vadia]

spin a bucket around -- the water stays in the bucket -- the bucket is the ring.  The water is everything in the ring.  If you want dirt farming, you have to adjust for the fact that the dirt goes to the outside.  The innermost ring is the section which would get sun and be able to contain dirt.

[Starver]

spin a bucket around -- the water stays in the bucket -- the bucket is the ring.  The water is everything in the ring.  If you want dirt farming, you have to adjust for the fact that the dirt goes to the outside.  The innermost ring is the section which would get sun and be able to contain dirt.

Or use mirrors/reflective ducts to send it through the inner/upper layers or in from the side to illuminate the farm ceiling.  Or use plant-tuned[1] artificial lights run off whatever power source (including solar, if the benefits outweigh the inefficiencies involved) you get your normal electricity from.

(Were you aiming the bucket analogy at me?)

I'd go for as pure a hydroponics solution as possible, but it'd probably still be better (free-floating algal masses in zero G aside) to illuminate from 'above'/hubwards, whether directly or indirectly.


[1] A lot of space-light is probably bad for the plants...  Although probably worse for people.

[10ebbor10]

He's trying to let plant grow in artificial gravity. Don't worry about that, they grow just fine without. (Though strange. Really strange)

No, but two things.
1. 100 launches use 100 times the fuel and 100 times the power of 1 launch. It's only if you're launching 100 times the mass that it gets exponential (because you need to lift the fuel).

Do I really need to spell out that you would use solar power, not chemical power?

I mean you could maybe speculate that a miniature nuclear electrical generator could be developed for this one very narrow use (it would be useless in most applications due to heat generation).  But that would probably be something resembling a nuclear submarine.  The launch payload of a single heavy booster to the moon with bulk cargo would last you for quite a bit longer then a half century with nuclear submarine level consumption.  So no, there would not be reoccuring costs.

Heat generation is not that much of a problem. Just put some radiators down, or develop a more efficient reactor. Second generation reactors are stuck at about 33% I believe, but fourth/fifth can get much higher efficiencies. One of the problems with the railcannon is that it requires a lot of power in a short time, requiring battery systems or powerfull power generation systems. A space elevator might work better, because it's spreads out the power drain. The other problem is that your railcannon is a giant conductor, but that can be resolved by putting most of it under the ground, and only opening the end when needed.

[hops]

This is something out of nowhere, but eh:

Note that glass manufactured in space is more durable than steel.

[andrea]

uh, that is interesting. Do you have any source on that? I'd like to read more.
Also, what exactly do you mean as durable?

[vadia]

The problem with the space elevator theory is that we don't know how to solve everything for it, yet.  The last thing you want is for a hurricane to knock the thing down and have it destroy huge swaths or New York or something.

[hops]

uh, that is interesting. Do you have any source on that? I'd like to read more.
Also, what exactly do you mean as durable?

I'm not entirely sure, but I think I remembered that it has to do with the molten glass eating through their containers and contaminating itself.

In space, you could use an acoustic levitator (which of course means you'll need air) to suspend the glass mid-air and have them cool down.

Source

So yeah, if going to space have any perk, it's manufacturing glass. I don't think Mars have sand, though.

Also, I can really foresee a satellite knocking the space elevator down.

[10ebbor10]

The problem with the space elevator theory is that we don't know how to solve everything for it, yet.  The last thing you want is for a hurricane to knock the thing down and have it destroy huge swaths or New York or something.

While there are problems with space elevators, nothing of what you mention is valid.
       - There are no hurricanes on the Equator, where a space elevator should be placed
       - New York isn't even close either
       - Spaceelevators have to be light. Really light. Otherwise they break under their own weight. Hence, not massive enough to destroy anything, or even survive reentry. Only the elevator capsule itself might do damage. The top part might create some dangerous spacegarbage though.

And last, we were talking about a spaceelevator on the Moon.

As for sattelites knocking into the elevator. The thing can move and dodge, you know. The ISS does it all the time, and at the moment we have tagged pretty much all dangerous debris.