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Author Topic: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?  (Read 9948 times)

Helgoland

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Re: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?
« Reply #105 on: January 06, 2013, 10:53:27 am »

I'll actually be making a talk about a similar topic to hopefully get me a sweet sweet scholarship (which I will use as sweet sweet beer money :P ) - just wanted you guys to know that you're really, really helpful.

Seriously, if I get that scholarship: Everyone who posted before this post, PM me your address (or some other address, your loss) and I'll send you a bottle of the local beer.

(Second time this week that I've offered to ship beer to Bay12ers - maybe I should open a forum store :D )
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Duuvian

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Re: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?
« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2013, 11:47:14 pm »

Once again, to chime in. The Michigan Medical Marihuana act so far has not harmed the local area whatsoever. If anything, it has lifted the spirits of the youth in that they have found the possibility of a legitimate business that has not been cornered by their seniors with which to help at least partially escape the clutches of their previous generation's benevolent iron grip on finances. Meanwhile: the aforementioned previous generation is tensefully awaiting the hammerfall that will hopefully never come; and yet enjoying the fruits of said labor of the youth to the point of proclaiming to now honourable businessman: "I love the future."

Even the State Government seems to agree; with the program currently posting a nice 8 million $dollars for the state from the sale of the cards alone, since they haven't bothered to set up a sales taxation system. However, this lack of sales tax on a formerly-traditionally black market good is perhaps wise as the alternative is the old ways if it gets out of hand as taxes imposed from afar are known to do from history. That said I would pay my taxes; were I to be a businessman of the sort; should the taxes not be stifling or the preparation of such be too much a hassle. Using my limited modern vernacular, perhaps you could build an app for it. However a tax would be the type of thing to establish after a legitimate foothold has been well established and the industry is prepared for such a thing in my opinion, though it seems well on it's way to being feasible as long as local governments are encouraged not to create 'void' areas where the law does not apply and thus taxation is impossible yet the market still exists as it has for decades. Also before taxation I suppose the current doctor referral system ought to be changed to be similar to a driver's liscence; in that you only need the approval of the State. Not that the current system is stifling; though I'd prefer to see the Doctor's part in it go as I feel that allowing a sort of 'amnesty' for every citizen would be best; rather than only those who feel the price to see a Doctor plus the cost of a card is worth paying in exchange. Some people can't or won't pay at the current cost, and thus the limited amnesty bypasses them and those dollars bypass the State; but removing doctors' fees would roughly halve the price and perhaps make it that much more feasible for these people. Since there are smart people who believe it should only be available from a doctor's prescription, I personally am willing to accept this as I qualify for a card easily, but heed my advice that removing the requirement for doctor recommendation would help keep people out of unproductive jail for relatively minor crimes, and help keep their fees both lesser and voluntary. If they choose not to pay for the card at a lesser price they would not have paid a greater price either.

As a personal observation as an armchair economist; I should do anyone interested in the future world a small favor and note that there was a very slight decline in price per weight over time from after the initial spike to slightly less than pre-card prices for roughly equivalents (due to a switch from mostly low quality to high quality goods becoming standard purchase for most as it is a better value) while maintaining the initial massive increase in quality. In other words; (professor voice) good news everyone!

Pre-Card Law quality was exceptionally low. Quality is mostly potency in this instance; however freshness is also desireable when the option is available. This is obvious in the way that, as far as I can tell, the import (illegal) Marijuana business has been dealt a tremendous blow in Michigan by allowing the locals who consume supply regardless to produce their own. This is surprising as pot roughly equivalent to Michigan grown pot, pre-card, was roughly 2-3 times the cost per weight (at the smallest sizes distributed) compared to import, depending on quantity. An assumption must be made that pre-card laws the majority of pot was likely grown outdoors somewhere else and imported; while changing hands at least 3, and likely several more times. Post card-law, I have yet to chance upon, in my limited adventures, something that is obviously imported (compressed rather than not).

Post-Card Law: Pot is grown locally, indoors, to specified limits per person. This is almost wasteful currently as electricity punishes their profit margin harshly. This is theoretically surmountable once the growers can afford to invest in solar paneling or other energy source. The strange upside to this; and one you won't see in California and similar places with laws where perhaps they didn't consider such things; is that since supply in Michigan is so tightly controlled there is an exceptionally small oversupply. This is notable by the fact the local dispensaries are constantly well stocked; yet not so well stocked as to cause the price to drop quickly. I would postulate that this is perhaps a result of the flexibility allowed to caregivers to grow other people's plants for them, thereby allowing them ways to find profit in such a venture by selling overages to the dispensary in addition to whatever their patient consumes and pays for (my assumption is energy costs would be a most satisfactory agreement to both parties). The 12 plants allowed at one time per person will likely not prove profitable to anyone other than one who currently imbibes; and even then it's more a matter of spending less on a habit (now a hobby) than profiting when you only have 12 plants. This might not be true however as the person willing to talk about it with me admits he is a novice grower and as such perhaps more experienced people have a better setup or routine in order to attempt a profit on their personal 12 plants. He is going to try some other type of light or bulb or something to lessen costs, I think he got it from a pet store funnily enough.

That said; is such a system that strangely balances itself something to be desired? I would say yes, as from what I can tell from my limited perusal of the news. It seems that California is oversupplied to the point of street hawkers and getting out of hand and bringing the most honorable Feds down upon themselves. If I were a braver man with enough money to make me so, I'd be interested in data on prices over there to see if they are on the downslide due to oversupply like my totally non-scientific hunch tells me they are. At least there is a state somewhat near them who has legalized possession but not yet production. That's downright convenient. My gut tells me to yell for my humble friends: Hey Ohio! Popular vote!

But then I realize the opportunity just isn't the same as I have the feeling (and no research) that Michigan and Ohio prices are not too far apart for similar product; though Ohioans are probably still flooded with the cheap, low quality Mexican brick weed as they have not had the foresight to follow in the logical steps towards fixing a basic economic problem despite their glorious neighbor (menacing from it's two advantageous strategic positions to the north) already having seen fit to rectify the same upon it's noble peoples' request.


I should note that the less likely medical researchers are to be put in jail for obtaining marijuana for research, the better chance that useful refined medications could be produced from it.

As a last note; one thing to think about is that these young gardeners most likely will not have it easy time of it. I for one think that these local, brave scientists should be applauded for helping to tear down the social barriers keeping us from our marijuana medicine.

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« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 02:36:01 am by Duuvian »
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lordcooper

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Re: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?
« Reply #107 on: January 07, 2013, 05:57:06 am »

The one potential issue I see with blanket legalization is that the quality/potency increase that would undoubtedly occur might catch a few people out.  That's probably not too bad in the case of Cannabis, but may well result in a few idiots dying when it comes to stuff like ecstasy or heroin.  Then again, this could probably be mitigated somewhat by disclaimers and/or dosage recommendations, which may well result in less deaths over a greater timespan because of greater standardisation.  Less people go blind from Jack Daniels than moonshine.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?
« Reply #108 on: January 07, 2013, 12:53:40 pm »

I figure we'd see the opposite, given how some of the banned substances are only as deadly as they are because the makers are garage chemists rather than pharmacists, and do things like use car battery acid to cut methamphetamine or spike marijuana with formaldehyde.
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Wayward Device

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Re: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?
« Reply #109 on: January 07, 2013, 01:15:06 pm »

I figure we'd see the opposite, given how some of the banned substances are only as deadly as they are because the makers are garage chemists rather than pharmacists, and do things like use car battery acid to cut methamphetamine or spike marijuana with formaldehyde.

Basically this. For example, pure heroin causes practically no physical damage. Sure, a heroin addict hitting that China White for thirty years is likely to be pretty skiny and perhaps suffer malnutrition, but this is because they are massively slowing their metabolism on a regular basis, not the inherent toxicity of herion. There main risk of death, apart from the addition of horrible stuff, is overdose, which a consistent quality helps to prevent. I'm not going to go trawling for figures on this (to depressing) but a large portion of long term opiate addicts (as filtered by being the people who are actually able to pull this off and live) are medical personnel with access to a clean, medical grade supply.

Also, another huge factor is contamination during shipping. This will vary widely depending on the drug and how it has to get to where you are. But suffice to say, when it comes to transporting a commodity which will get you a hefty prison term and you have to chose between putting your efforts into trying to not get caught and making sure those used industrial drums are clear of any toxic residue from their previous use, well. Its not really a hard choice for the average criminal.

Its actually a pretty tricky subject, mostly due to all the BS propaganda floating around ("Dealers are cutting weed with crack, meth and industrial waste and are GIVING IT AWAY TO CHILDREN") but at the end of the day quality control is always a good thing, be it for medical or recreational drugs.       
 
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lordcooper

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Re: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?
« Reply #110 on: January 07, 2013, 01:17:54 pm »

Formaldehyde is a new one to me.  What benefit would that give to the dealer?


Heroin would be the prime example here, with an effective does to lethal dose ratio of merely 1:5.  A lot of poorer areas (at least in the UK) are flooded with absolutely crap heroin*.  Taking the same quantity of reasonably pure heroin that many people take of the crap adulterated stuff that they're used to would literally kill them, or at least cause severe damage to numerous organs if they were lucky enough to somehow get to a hospital.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against legalization, I just think it's important to try and examine things from all angles.  Any attempt at legalization would have to be accompanied by a fairly significant re/education budget for current addicts.

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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?
« Reply #111 on: January 07, 2013, 01:22:55 pm »

Formaldehyde is a new one to me.  What benefit would that give to the dealer?
I'm not really sure. I just remember that it was a big thing when the media got a hold of it, because formaldehyde-weed has a tendency to kind of.....kill you dead on the spot.
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Darvi

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Re: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?
« Reply #112 on: January 07, 2013, 01:23:08 pm »

Wow, I didn't know that nutmeg's that poisonous.

I still freaking like the stuff, though.
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lordcooper

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Re: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?
« Reply #113 on: January 07, 2013, 01:25:15 pm »

Formaldehyde is a new one to me.  What benefit would that give to the dealer?
I'm not really sure. I just remember that it was a big thing when the media got a hold of it, because formaldehyde-weed has a tendency to kind of.....kill you dead on the spot.

I'm too lazy to research it right now, but I'm gonna go ahead and call 'bullshit media scare' on that one.  Killing your customers (quickly :P) is rarely a valid business strategy.
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10ebbor10

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Re: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?
« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2013, 01:33:31 pm »

Formaldehyde is a new one to me.  What benefit would that give to the dealer?
I'm not really sure. I just remember that it was a big thing when the media got a hold of it, because formaldehyde-weed has a tendency to kind of.....kill you dead on the spot.
I'm too lazy to research it right now, but I'm gonna go ahead and call 'bullshit media scare' on that one.  Killing your customers (quickly :P) is rarely a valid business strategy.
Also, last time I checked formaldehyde was a gas, making it rather hard to add to drugs and stuff.
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lordcooper

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Re: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?
« Reply #115 on: January 07, 2013, 01:39:32 pm »

Formaldehyde is a new one to me.  What benefit would that give to the dealer?
I'm not really sure. I just remember that it was a big thing when the media got a hold of it, because formaldehyde-weed has a tendency to kind of.....kill you dead on the spot.
I'm too lazy to research it right now, but I'm gonna go ahead and call 'bullshit media scare' on that one.  Killing your customers (quickly :P) is rarely a valid business strategy.
Also, last time I checked formaldehyde was a gas, making it rather hard to add to drugs and stuff.

Eh, there'd still be traces of the stuff stuck in there if I remember my comp school physics classes right. (I might not).
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Helgoland

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Re: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?
« Reply #116 on: January 07, 2013, 02:08:15 pm »

I figure we'd see the opposite, given how some of the banned substances are only as deadly as they are because the makers are garage chemists rather than pharmacists, and do things like use car battery acid to cut methamphetamine or spike marijuana with formaldehyde.
Heroin, for example, hardly damages the organs at all.

(What it does to pianos though I belive you'd rather not know...)
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DJ

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Re: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?
« Reply #117 on: January 07, 2013, 02:09:49 pm »

That chart doesn't look that believable to me. I'm gonna smoke 20 000 joints at once to prove it wrong.
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pisskop

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Re: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?
« Reply #118 on: January 07, 2013, 02:10:38 pm »

That sounds almost as that idea every stoner gets to bottle the smoke and sell it.
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PanH

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Re: How to Effectively Limit (Currently) Illicit Drug Use?
« Reply #119 on: January 07, 2013, 02:17:43 pm »

That chart doesn't look that believable to me. I'm gonna smoke 20 000 joints at once to prove it wrong.
Ratio of effective dose to lethal dose.
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