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[GreatWyrmGold]

we're not a lot tougher,

We are quite tough comparing to regular human. And that's highly depends on gift

If we bleed, we can be killed. Our biggest advantage over puny mortals is that we don't feel pain.

and how do you suggest we get anything safely that we can't get from the forest if we don't have a human who trusts us?

Well, I don't like the whole safely part, I prefer combat and building an army to negotiating\trading with prey

And how do we feed and equip that army? Or get nice things like not eviscerated when we decide we want one of the myriad things we would need or want from town?

and counter question - what do you need in town that Alice can help us right now? What do we need in towns that we can't get otherwise?

Um, nice healing potion or something?
Anyways, again, being able to purchase weapons and armor and such will prove invaluable under your idea, even if we don't do so now. Not to mention tomes of arcane lore not present in Foghorn's collection or that he won't lend us.

While the gifts could enhance her, see how we're mostly having Gwen use her pre-conversion talents?

Gift was quite minor and not compatible with her skills
Now imagine boosting Alice with something like animal empathy gift. Hello animal army.

Um, couldn't we give the gift to someone who isn't so useful without conversion? Say, an elf?
Almost any elf? Well, almost any elf without Y chromosomes, of course.
This plan would net us human Alice plus animal-empathetic consort rather than consort Alice plus midnight snack.

I repeat right now we have no gift that will make Alice better ally, but that may change

Again, Alice has much utility that would be lost if we converted her.

Dropped point: We need those gifts to get children. It's an investment, sure, but why squander our resources?

[Thecard]

Dude, never underestimate diplomacy.  A good diplomatic victory is just beneficial as a military victory, if not more so (ya' know, less razing and burning to ruin industry we could use to feed + field troops).  But it would be just as stupid to only have diplomacy as an option as it would be to have just military as an option.  We need to keep as many possibilities open.

And don't be so caught up in "what could Alice get us right now."  You gotta be ready for the future.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

And how do we feed and equip that army? 

1) Looting
2) there are many ways to trade outside towns, from black markets to night creature traders
3) don't freeing one ghost and force it to make weapons

Um, couldn't we give the gift to someone who isn't so useful without conversion? Say, an elf?
Almost any elf? Well, almost any elf without Y chromosomes, of course.

It was an example.
And you really think that daughter of a wizard = almost any elf?

Again, Alice has much utility that would be lost if we converted her.

Pfff...
Just a short list:

Advantages of Alice staying human ( as you call that - utility)
1) We may send her in towns for trading ( forest girl is surely a magnificent trader)
2) She may spy ( We have no other options, like a guy with camouflaged body and stealth skill and  or a girl that can send animal spies )

Advantages of Alice becoming a night troll
1) She will be more loyal ( I don't want to see her falling deeply in love with some chick and leaving us)
2) She will be stronger
3) She will be tougher
4) Foghorn will lose chance to take her back and marry to someone else (except he finds a husband for a night troll)
5) She will piss Gwen way way less
6) We'll get a powerful father in law

Will you keep saying that converting Alice achieves nothing?

Dude, never underestimate diplomacy. 

I do not underestimate diplomacy, but I prefer to not negotiate with prey. It's disgusting

[Weirdsound]

(Sorry guys. Ranger was right. You should have leveled up Eon Magic by now. I'll set it to require one more successful use for now. If I retcon in a level up here, it would change the character sheet in ways that may or may not render some of the arguments given for this turn invalid. I'll make up the mistake by fudging a roll or something in the future.)


Character:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Name: the Male Night Troll "My father says I earn a name when people fear me enough to give me one."

Physical Traits:
Movement is Impaired in Left Arm. Grasping is Impaired in Left Hand. Right Leg Damaged; likely broken
Tattooed Arms "Prevents me from getting magic fatigued as easily, and even helps out a bit with casting. Also: Fashionable."
Springy Legs "I wish I could fly, but being able to jump like a flea and kick peoples ribs in is the next best thing."
Camouflaged Body "I can be invisible... at a glance or at a distance."
Hypnotic Gaze "I'm good at disabling a mortal's self preservation instinct... not so good at predicting his actions once I do."

Skills:
Eon Manipulation (+4) "Eon Manipulation is a family tradition. I hope to someday be as good as my father..."
Stealth (+4) "They can't escape what they can't see!"
Dark Manipulation (+2) "The night is my birthright and my greatest ally..."
Night Creature Empathy (+1) "Because it pays to be friends with other night dwellers."
Communication (+1) "Even for one as hideous as myself, a silver tongue goes a long way!"

Inventory:
A cursed bracelet of plant reading [+1 when listening to plants] (Worn, right arm, boosts Plant Empathy in some situations)
Scorchedjade, An Artifact Rose Quartz Spear [Unknown Enchantment(s)] (Wielded, right hand)
Steel Buckler (Wielded, left arm)
A Soul Catcher Necklace (Worn)
2 Steel Maces [Noisy and Somewhat Encumbering] (Hanging from belt and strapped to back)
Alchemist's Work Outfit [Shirt, Apron, Pants] (Worn)
-An Elf Tooth Charm Necklace (In pocket)
-1 Flint Fire-starter Kit (In pocket)
-1 Pair of Forceps (In pocket)
-1 Handheld mirror (In pocket)
-2 Large Rubies (In Pocket)
-2 Platinum Ingots (In Pockets, Straining Garmet)
-1 Human Stomach of Phyros [Magically Preserved] (In Pocket)
-1 Human Brain of Phyros [Magically Preserved] (In pocket)
-1 Medium Sized Jar Labeled 'Ghost Pepper Jam' (In Pocket)
-1 Small Sack of Grey Powder Labeled 'Phoenix Ash' (In Pocket)
-1 Small Sack of Assorted Dragon Bits [Small Bones, Scales, Teeth, Ect] (In Pocket)
-1 Small Sack Labeled 'Warning: Gunpowder' (In Pocket)
-1 Book Titled 'Intro to the Inferno: The Scourge's Guide to Flame Manipulation' (In Pocket)
-1 Book Titled 'The Devil's Cookbook: Alchemy for Those Lacking in Moral Fiber' (In Pocket)
Thick Belt (Worn)
-1 Large Knife (Sheathed, Hanging from Belt)
-1 Saber (Sheathed, Hanging from Belt)
"So the artifact has to do with Earth Magic..."

Perks:
Magic Perks
Budding Animal Empath: You will gain the animal empathy skill if you succeed in 1 animal empathy actions, or successfully study it in a book
Improving Eon Mage: Your Eon magic skill will increase if you succeed in 1 successful Eon Manipulation action, or train extensively with a superior eon manipulator twice.
Time Displacement Specialist: Take a +1 to any attempt to send something foward in time.
Budding Fire Manipulator: You will gain the fire manipulation skill if you succeed in 2 fire manipulation actions or train with somebody who has it
Aspiring Water Manipulator: You will gain the water manipulation skill if you succeed in 6 water manipulation actions, or train extensively with somebody who has it
Aspiring Swordsman: You will gain the Armed Combat [Swords] skill if you succeed in 6 sword combat actions, or train extensively with somebody who has it
Fire Manipulation Utility Theory: You do not suffer an untrained skill penalty for using non-destructive fire magic
Fire Manipulation Combat Theory: You do not suffer an untrained skill penalty for using fire magic to destroy, kill, or maim
Bug Speaker: You do not suffer an untrained skill penalty for using animal empathy on bugs
Bird Speaker: You do not suffer an untrained skill penalty for using animal empathy on birds

Reproductive Perks
Mature: You are physically and mentally capable of converting and impregnating mates. To do so you must spend a "Gift" perk. "Gift" perks can be gained by rolling very high, learning new skills, or through other supernatural means. If you create a child it may be born with some traits of it's mother in addition to whatever gift you use to conceive it.
First Gift: Can be spent to convert or impregnate a mate. The night troll created will have your four physical features. Gifts that grant more than two traits are rare, so this may be worth saving for somebody special.
Gift of Puppetry: Can be spent to convert or impregnate a mate. The night troll created will be bound to follow your commands for as long as you both live. You will be made aware of any major changes to your puppet's health or location.
Gift of Hideousness: Can be spent to convert or impregnate a mate. The night troll created will appear so unatural and ugly that it will almost always elicit a powerful emotional response (typically fear, disgust, or anger) in any mortal who lays eyes on it.

Recipes:
Drought of Perception Blotting: Causes the drinker to become invisible to members of a single sentient race unless the drinker tries to get their attention or is pointed out to them.
-1 Brain of the Race you wish to be not noticed by
-1 Fistfull of ash from burned oak
-1 1 Large Mug of digestive juices from a mammal

Other Party Members:
Gwendolyn, the Night Troll Consort (Healthy, Unfamiliar with her own body)
-Loincloth
-Oak Sword (Enchanted)
-Willow Sword (Enchanted)
-Steel Mace
-Steel Mace

Finding the cat-fighting unbearable, you swallow and conjure up your best impersonation of the only being you ever knew who could make women do what he wanted without question; your father. "SILENCE YOUR.... ermmm... PRESUMPTIONS WOMEN! I WILL MAKE MY OWN DESCISION AS TO HOW MY LEG WILL BE... crap what was the word? Erm... TREATED!"

Your words, however awkward in delivery, are enough to plunge the room into a brief silence and then stifled female giggling. 1d20 = 10 + 1(Skill) = 11

"Gwendolyn. Go hunt up some souls. I trust your ability to heal me. Do you require some sort of soul catcher?" You ask. Alice's head droops as you place your confidence in the plan of the Consort.

"No dear. My willow blade can take souls. I'm fine."

You nod. "Then be gone. I have to talk to my friend Alice in private."

Gwendolyn leaves and you gesture Alice closer to your bed.

Alice deserves a brief explanation of her situation, so you give her one. Conversion could very well be in her future, but she is a friend and you would never turn her without her consent. She is informed that the conversion process is uncomfortable to say the least, but those who submit willingly suffer a bit less. You stress the fact that no sexual contact is required.

You then get into a discussion on the topic of gifts, explaining you do not have one that is appropriate for her at the moment. You add that until you are strong enough to just take what you want you will need a mortal employee to partake in trade and negotiations on your behalf. Your explanation seems to calm her down a bit, but then she delivers some bad news. 1d20 = 11 + 1(Skill) = 12

"Well I'm no good for that." Alice explains a bit dejected. "Most of the settlements around here would have me drawn and quartered on sight considering who my dad is. I could likely get around Dawnmaiden without any trouble, but you could as well so long as you put a minimum effort into a disguise. All sorts of freaky warlocks and dark beasts frequent that retreat, and everybody knows better to investigate those they do business with."

With a sigh you instruct Alice to help you down the hidden ladder to the forge. On your way through the dungeon you notice the captured elf seems to be in poor shape. You doubt she will make it even another 24 hours without water.

...

Illuem looks at the spear with an expression of awe. "Scorchedjade... that is its name. It passed through this tower once shortly after I was bound here. I knew the fellow who made it in life... a beekeeper. Didn't think he had an artifact in him."

"Does it do anything special other than look pretty?"

The ghostly dwarf looks the weapon over a few times. "Hrrmmm... judging by the material used and artwork on it, I'd guess it has something to do with Earth Manipulation. I'm sure one of my descendants would have taken up that field of study. Perhaps if you let me sell you some for my freedom you can find out master?"

You nod, and inform that ghost that you are still considering his offer. Before you leave the forge Illuem reminds you that your disguise/armor is ready. It has few pockets and is a bit encumbering, so you decide not to wear it until it is needed.

[Thecard]

Ah, had this all written up, then ninja'd!  But using Alice to trade will apply in the future if we plan to move on to other areas, which I believe we do.

And how do we feed and equip that army? 

1) Looting
2) there are many ways to trade outside towns, from black markets to night creature traders
3) don't freeing one ghost and force it to make weapons

1) Could work, but nowhere near reliable, and impossible if we are besieging a fortification.
2) Black markets are in town.  We could get in ourself, but honestly I would rather send in Alice.  If she gets in trouble, we can rescue her.  No danger of word getting out about us.  They would want to know where her father is, so they wouldn't kill her on sight.  They would try to get it out of her.  Unless she talks to them about us, and I don't think she would, there is no danger of losing the element of surprise yet.  If we get caught, we'd be killed on sight, I'm guessing.  We are a monstrosity, after all.
3) But he can't get raw materials anywhere, we'd need our own production or trade to get those.

Um, couldn't we give the gift to someone who isn't so useful without conversion? Say, an elf?
Almost any elf? Well, almost any elf without Y chromosomes, of course.

It was an example.
And you really think that daughter of a wizard = almost any elf?

Her magic is not going to be automatically boosted, and it's good enough as it is.
And... yes, I actually do.  Elves are innately magical, look at their homes.  We can probably find a better mage elsewhere in the Elven lands.

Again, Alice has much utility that would be lost if we converted her.

Pfff...
Just a short list:

Advantages of Alice staying human ( as you call that - utility)
1) We may send her in towns for trading ( forest girl is surely a magnificent trader)
2) She may spy ( We have no other options, like a guy with camouflaged body and stealth skill and  or a girl that can send animal spies )

Whoah, no biased phrases here.  Seriously though, that's pretty rude.  I don't patronize you.  Not on purpose, at least.  If I have, I'm honestly very sorry.
1) Now, she can't go in so easily, but she probably does know how to trade, and what we'll need.  She's been living away from town for all her life, she probably knows what we need to thrive out here.
2) Our camouflage?  Yeah, that won't actually help us blend into anywhere we want to spy on, unless you would like to spy on a grassy meadow.  So outside of the Elven lands, we will need a human.  Maybe she could pay an unknowing third party to get pieces of info, that would be safer.  No one would know we are involved.

Advantages of Alice becoming a night troll
1) She will be more loyal ( I don't want to see her falling deeply in love with some chick and leaving us)
2) She will be stronger
3) She will be tougher
4) Foghorn will lose chance to take her back and marry to someone else (except he finds a husband for a night troll)
5) She will piss Gwen way way less
6) We'll get a powerful father in law

Will you keep saying that converting Alice achieves nothing?

1) I don't think there are very many lesbian chicks just wandering around.  And she is loyal to us, she is willing to be converted.  And conversion won't actually make her any more loyal.  And I don't think she will find a lover, because again, I'm assuming lesbian love is not permitted in this realm.
2) + 3) These are the same thing, really.  And we are a mage, and rarely use our strength.  It's better to have her kept back where it's safer so she can come/send help with animal empathy if we need help.
4) He's disowned her.  He doesn't want anything familial to do with her, remember?
5) I don't know about that, would having another wife piss Gwen off a bit more?  She isn't really pissed at Alice, she's just being very protective of us.  She thinks she knows better than Alice.  She probably does want to eat her, but that's only natural.
6) Again, he's disowned her.  He already thinks of us as an ally anyway.

And I'm not saying converting her achieves nothing.  I just don't think it outweighs having a human on "team troll."

[Grek]

Vote to not convert Alice now, and to ask Illuem what he needs for his artifact.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Well, it's pointless to discuss, we'll not convert her soon anyway. I'd only say that converting makes more loyal due to instincts and that Foghorn may calm down and change his mind... He may find someone who is interested in Alice and offer something valuable. He may get unhappy with us and take daughter away..
_____________________________
My proposal

1) Unload maces and bars. Order Illuem to make us a light helmet that will not limit our vision. Head injuries are dangerous. Alice may get a helmet, too.
2) Ask Alice if she knows anything about earth manipulation
3) Go and eat that elven girl, we need energy to help our body recover
4) Visit the bird, chose one for training as our personal pet\pack animal\mount.  Alice's assistance is welcomed.

_________________-
I'd not rush with freeing Illuem...
And as any dwarf, I suspect that Illuem doesn't know that until he is in da mood

[Mlamlah]

Here's stuff we could use in town:
-Healing Magic (example, potions)
-Even the most mundane information and gossip (which we do not have access to otherwise)
-More specifically, information about potential allies and enemies
-A stable, regular, and safe food source as an alternative to eggs. These eggs might not always be enough to feed us and our servants.
-Mundane goods and services, everything from labor if we want to build something to leather for straps if we want to be able to more efficiently strap stuff to ourself.

We could also use her to more easily set traps for our enemies/ potential mates, because she can just... talk to them, and lure them into an ambush.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Can't resist

-Healing Magic (example, potions)

There are other sources of that and we have unusual biology I'd not risk drinking potions designed for humans

-Even the most mundane information and gossip (which we do not have access to otherwise)
-More specifically, information about potential allies and enemies
 

Animal spies

-A stable, regular, and safe food source as an alternative to eggs. These eggs might not always be enough to feed us and our servants.

We need fear, not only regular food, so safe food isn't really an option... And isn't Alice know how to hunt for meat?

-Mundane goods and services, everything from labor if we want to build something to leather for straps if we want to be able to more efficiently strap stuff to ourself.

Something that we can survive without

Oh, and look at the update... she is useless in that roles for a very loooong time until we travel to area where no one knows about Foghorn and his family

[Thecard]

Not exactly useless, as I pointed out.
And as I didn't point out, she says most.  She could still go into some of the others safely.

Also, you already responded to Wyrm's post.  Why did you respond to the same post again?

[Mlamlah]

I missed this page somehow, so my response here is not where i intended, my apologies.

[GreatWyrmGold]

And how do we feed and equip that army? 

1) Looting
2) there are many ways to trade outside towns, from black markets to night creature traders
3) don't freeing one ghost and force it to make weapons

1. Good luck. They're an army, we're not.
2. What makes you think that the black marketers would like us more than normal humans do, and how many night creatures have access to good gear?
3. And how do you get the metal and fuel?

Um, couldn't we give the gift to someone who isn't so useful without conversion? Say, an elf?
Almost any elf? Well, almost any elf without Y chromosomes, of course.

It was an example.
And you really think that daughter of a wizard = almost any elf?

For what purpose? For natural magic, probably. However, Alice+Elf>Alice. Simple math.

Again, Alice has much utility that would be lost if we converted her.

Pfff...
Just a short list:

Advantages of Alice staying human ( as you call that - utility)
1) We may send her in towns for trading ( forest girl is surely a magnificent trader)
2) She may spy ( We have no other options, like a guy with camouflaged body and stealth skill and  or a girl that can send animal spies )

Advantages of Alice becoming a night troll
1) She will be more loyal ( I don't want to see her falling deeply in love with some chick and leaving us)
2) She will be stronger
3) She will be tougher
4) Foghorn will lose chance to take her back and marry to someone else (except he finds a husband for a night troll)
5) She will piss Gwen way way less
6) We'll get a powerful fat]
her in law

Well, let's look over those purported advantages...
1. She literally owes her life to us. She was fine with us converting her and glad when we didn't. Unless someone enchants her, not much to worry about there.
2,3. Sure. Let's send our best friend and one of our most powerful allies into danger, rather than someone more expendable...
4. True, but not of much use, as Alice would probably run off rather than get married against her will. Especially if we granted her asylum.
5. I wouldn't bet on it. It seems to be more a personality clash/elf vs. human thing than a "She's not a night creature" thing.
6. A disadvantage, as Foghorn has never consented to us converting her, except in a fit of anger that may well have been sarcasm.

Will you keep saying that converting Alice achieves nothing?

I have never said that.

Dude, never underestimate diplomacy. 

I do not underestimate diplomacy, but I prefer to not negotiate with prey. It's disgusting

They're not prey, and even if they were, it's better to negotiate with them than to not have everything we need, neh?

You still haven't explained how NC Alice>Human Alice+other night creature.

Anyways, yay update.

Vote to not convert Alice now, and to ask Illuem what he needs for his artifact.

+1, more magic is always good. Maybe ask what his smithing specialty was in life.

[QuakeIV]

As a side note, perhaps we should reserve our admittedly ineffective ragebursts for especially important situations, to keep in line with the plan of being genuinely nice to Gwendolyn.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'd say that cooling tensions between our two lady-friends is pretty important...

[QuakeIV]

Well yelling at them probably isn't the best way to do anything more than temporarily get things moving.

Its not like screaming "FOOLISH FOOLS DO MY WILL" will be a profound turning point in how they view eachother.